1 If he wants to change my mind, he needs to avoid oversimplifying the issue in the first paragraph of his essay.

2 I beg your pardon, LMA, he does not rock. He completely omits the original basis of marriage. Marriage began first as a cultural (and later legal) framework for the protection of the rights of children and childbearers. It has somehow morphed into an expansion of rights for people who only want to live together. The only requirement today is that they be of opposite sex. We have already read the plan of the Canadian progressives, first to make any kind of union legal, and then to do away with the entire thing as unnecessary. I'm not making this up. (I'll find the link later, in the meantime, google is your freind.) So, the people fighting for gay marriage are the (unwitting?) pawns of those who want to do away the entire thing. Why bother? -Bob p.s. i've been quite amused by the recent "gay divorce" horror stories. be careful what you wish for ...

3 You can get enough here to find the rest yourself. http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200602030805.asp -Bob

4 Come on, now, Bob: you're oversimplifying a bit. For many centuries women were regarded as the possessions of their husbands. I understand that you're pointing out marriage (theoretically) prevented the man from deserting the women he impregnated and all the issue therefrom, but to say it was ALL about protecting women and children is a bit much.

5 LMA, I didn't say it was _ALL_ about protecting women and children, I said it began as such. It is as if Rauch is explaining the game of baseball and starts at second base. You can't steal first base. -Bob

6 I really don't have much problem with same-sex marriage except for one thing: Please keep your sex lives to yourselves and don't force your view of it on me and, especially, on my children. The homosexual "lifestyle" is not something that needs to be in our schools.

7 When, Bob? When was that magical moment at which marriage was only about protecting women and children? Because to me in the very beginning it appears that marriage was about men owning women as much as "protecting" them.

8 LMA, It appears I've touched an emotional nerve. I can't reason against emotion. It seems to me that owning other people is called slavery. Since slavery was also in place at the advent of history, why would it have been necessary to have two forms of slavery? Marriage has always -- from the very beginning -- established the property rights of heirs and survivors. Ownership, or slavery, has specifically "dis-established" the rights of the owned parties. Most concubines were slaves, they were not generally referred to as wives. Their children were sold. As far as being "magical" is concerned, i have difficulty with that notion. Marriage out of affection is a fairly recent development and primarily exists in westernized cultures. Arranged marriages are hardly magical for many of the participants. Since they were arranged by parents with ulterior motives, the corruption of the "magical moment" with ulterior motives was probably immediate, if not sooner. -Bob

9 So maybe women had some input in this marriage thing from its inception? Could it have been a "social contract"? I agree to do this in exchange for this, this, and this. . .Hmmm. What a novel idea! Putting the weight of law and the courts behind it just made it all work out as agreed upon. I"d be more eager to vote for same-sex marriage if the feminists in the 60's hadn't suggested gay marriage as the first step to ridding society of all marriage. Since marriage is just a contract, what is wrong with creating individual contacts that convey all the same rights? Lawyers in major cities have been putting together standardized packages that do just that for years. And for as low as $200-300. Fine. If you must, go with civil unions where the packages are created by the State. I'll even let you call it "marryage" like in that movie "Pursuit of Happyness." But, that's it.

1 By that same token, lots of historical people did not exist. I could not find one mention of Buddha or Mohammad in any Roman historical accounts of the day. The Gospels did survive and any other prior historical accounts didn't. Not surprising since there was a persecution going on. The "God Project" at Loyola University in Chicago is the center of inter-faith 'scholarship' in these matters. They say the Last Supper never happened. Why? Did they find records indicating that Jesus as already in custody on Thursday? No. They say "does Jesus look like the kind of guy that would throw a dinner party?" You can't argue with scholarship like that.

2 Silly human(ist)s. They refute themselves. -B

3 I loved the fact that in the clip they asked people how the Gospel was spread initially, and got two answers: the Holy Spirit, and "word of mouth." The question was vague, so the answers were a little vague. They did not, for example, have the balls to ask Christians: "when do you think the first written Gospel was composed?" It was perfectly clear that the Christians in the clips knew the Gospel initially spread as oral history. Was any device ever so transparent?

4 http://www.locksley.com/locksley/picts.htm You can prove anything with enough logic .....