May 07, 2008
Uh-Oh.
Rachel Lucas has been
reading C.S. Lewis. (And dressing her dog up like the Queen of Angels, but there's nothing too new in that; I hate to admit it, but I love it when she dresses her dog up—except, maybe, in the bee outfit, which was a bit much.)
One line from Lewis’ book that actually made me laugh out loud (at myself) was that if people “cannot understand books written for grown-ups, they should not talk about them.” I’ve mentioned before that I’ve read the Bible a couple of times, but the thing is, I didn’t read it as a real grown-up. The last time I read it, I was actively looking for faults to prove that I was right. I wasn’t truly being objective and considering it in a historical or scholarly context.
ItÂ’s difficult to articulate on a blog why IÂ’m even bothering trying to learn about Christianity now because as IÂ’ve mentioned before, I hate being misunderstood. The truth is that I am not exactly seeking salvation or God or anything like that, and frankly if I were, I would not talk about it with virtual strangers at this stage of the game. At this moment, my biggest aim is simply trying to relieve myself of the terrifying feeling IÂ’ve had for years that I live in a society full of and run by people who believe a theology I donÂ’t believe in, and that therefore I am surrounded by crazy people. ItÂ’s a bit of cognitive dissonance that I simply couldnÂ’t take anymore.
Is my dad a crazy person? Are 90% of the people who read my blog crazy people? Are most of my friends crazy people? If I think Christianity is crazy, then the only answer to those questions is YES. But it just never added up.
This rings so true for me: in fact, a lot of my family and friends do think I'm crazy—or weak—for believing in God. Crazier still for believing in Jesus as my savior. And I know that plenty of 'em think that's why I'm an "right-wing racist gun nut." But in fact my religious beliefs are entirely separate from my political beliefs: the only connection is that I'm willing to buck the trend in both arenas.
But, Jesus: well, I'm one of those people who do not believe he was a "great teacher," and just a man. I cannot feel a bunch of warm fuzzies about him if he wasn't who he said he was. Either he was the Son of God (and therefore God), or he was, as Evan once put it when we were in Junior High School, "an insane rabbi with charisma."
For me, Occam's Razor applies here.
I would say, "that's all," but it most certainly isn't. However, I'll stop.
Kudos to Rachel for investigating this with an open mind, and for re-thinking some of her preconceived notions about organized religion. The very best we can hope for from anyone is intellectual honesty. She is, indeed, awesome.
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First off, no dog costume is ever excessive. Ever. I speak as from on high and will brook no objections.
Second, I find the words and example of Jesus just as inspiring, just as much a call to imitation, if he was an inspired rabbi or if he was the Son of God. Personally, I go with the former, not seeing much evidence of a personally involved deity anywhere. But the whole being nice, giving to the poor, getting over yourself thing... that's good advice, no matter what the existential or metaphysical nature of the one who said it.
In fact, I really like believing we can follow the example of Jesus' life without having to believe in His Power To Punish us if we don't.
Posted by: Rin at May 07, 2008 12:58 PM (bSHZa)
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Dear Rin:
Em, no. Jesus' entire ministry revolves around His claims to be God. And I would strongly recommend you re-read the Gospels if you think that Jesus is all about 'being nice' (see what He has to say about His disciples shaking their dust of their feet), or 'giving to the poor' (John records Mary anointing Him with some perfume that costs a year's salary), although 'getting over youself' is true, even if it includes "take up your cross and follow Me."
Jesus walks around doing miracles as signs of His sovereignty; healing the sick, reviving the dead, mourning with those who mourn. His baptism shows the Trinity being present all at once.
At the end of the day, what we make of His words very much depends on how we see Him. Either Jesus was telling the truth, or He was lying, when He said "before Abraham was, I AM".
Please, please, I urge you to read again the Gospels and see what Jesus says about HIMSELF. And ask yourself; what do His claims add up to?
Posted by: Gregory at May 07, 2008 05:44 PM (cjwF0)
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Not to mention that if He is not God, he is a liar. Why? Because He said He was God. Funny how no one ever brings that up when they try to tell you that it is enough that he is a man and he said some good things.
If he wasn't God who became man to subject himself to the same rules of life he set out for us, he would be just a man. And His words would be merely opinions. Opinions like the opinions of the 100 billion people who have walked this Earth since the dawn of man have had. Give or take. Opinions, not truth--not Law. The Commandments told us what NOT to do. Jesus told us what to do. And if I didn't believe Jesus was God, I'd file His Words in the same place I file the words of other ordinary men. In my "for what it's worth" file. And I would not build my life upon them.
Posted by: Darrell at May 07, 2008 07:30 PM (Z279R)
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gotta love cs lewis. and dogs that wear clothes aren't really dogs for gosh sakes!!!
Posted by: zoey at May 07, 2008 07:54 PM (KU4Si)
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The idea is that his teachings were "misinterpreted" by his followers, that he didn't REALLY mean to claim he was the Son of God, his followers just put that in to fool the rubes later.
Of course, that sort of leads to the question, if they got that central of a tenet wrong, then how can you trust their report of ANY of his teachings? Therefore, you are left with a total intellectual conundrum. The idea that they got the central tenet of his being the Son of God wrong, but correctly transmitted the rest of the teachings is the sort of idea that only someone with the cognitive dissonance of, well, a liberal, could hold.
Note, that since I am a Mormon, I am neutral on all these things, since I am not a Christian. Just ask Mike Huckabee.
David
Posted by: David at May 07, 2008 08:12 PM (AoSNx)
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Zoey, I have to defend Rachel's dogs: they are clearly not happy about it. But the scarves and hats just slay me--like it did at the design magazine, when we'd try to get pix of the Bitty Terrier wearing the latest fabric samples as veils or dresses.
I'm becoming a sicko in my old age . . .
Re: Christianity, I have to say that there were teachings of Christ's that were revolutionary--on gender relations, for instance, and the formulation of the Golden Rule in the positive.
But I still think that if Jesus wasn't divine, he was probably insane (or a liar, though that's less likely). And I don't think most of his apostles were on-board with this whole "I am God" thing until after he rose from the dead.
So I suppose one could get by with the formulation that he was insane, but still chock full o' insight. But that seems like small beer to me, all things considered.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 07, 2008 08:16 PM (Hgnbj)
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My dog loved his sweaters. The halloween costumes, not so much. And the raincoat, frankly, made him depressed. His best outfit was the Harley Davidson t-shirt with matching hat. ;-)
As for Jesus....
First, I have total respect for anyone who finds in the Bible (or another text) inspiration and tools with which to become a better, kinder, more principled human. Second, since the New Testament was not written by Jesus, but by people quoting him decades after the fact, I'm going to hypothesize that the "I am the Son of God" element was not original to Jesus. The essence of the NT is compassion, acceptance, forgiveness, and charity. Not smiting, not judging, and not doctrine.
In any case, not believing in a vindictive God who smites anyone who gets the doctrine a little bit wrong, and instead assuming that "in my father's house there are many mansions" means there's room for all and a lot of ways to get there, I find it most likely that any person of compassion, honorable principles, and personal responsibility can earn whatever post-mortem rewards are on offer, besides the most essential reward for good behavior, which is itself and the world it produces.
I used to be a devout Anglican, married to a pro-forma Catholic. Now, I'm an optimistic agnostic doing the best I can, trying to focus on living as a good person would.
Peace.
Posted by: Rin at May 08, 2008 06:13 AM (pzH6j)
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There is no evidence, either, that anyone changed the story of Jesus. The early Christians were persecuted, everywhere, and if there were any contemporaneous 'Gospels'(The Life of Jesus) they were surely hidden. Or existed only in words, kept in followers' minds--to keep evidence out of prosecutors' hands.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Covenant between God and the Jews--God becoming man. Without that element, the gospels are pointless. And there are consequences for your actions. Go back and reread the Words of Jesus. The point is that Jesus purchased your forgiveness by paying the infinite price with his death on the cross. And is there doctrine? Of course there is! There is the Way, the Truth, and the Light. And it's a one-way street.
Posted by: Darrell at May 08, 2008 11:48 AM (Z6/8g)
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I'm fuzzy about the afterlife, but I don't believe that any of my family members are going to be bunking down with Stalin--in any time, or in any dimension.
I know what I am called to do--spiritually, at least, if not in terms of my writing--and that is enough.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 08, 2008 02:00 PM (Hgnbj)
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Dear Rin:
Second, since the New Testament was not written by Jesus, but by people quoting him decades after the fact, I'm going to hypothesize that the "I am the Son of God" element was not original to Jesus.
I'm sorry to say this, but that's utter rubbish. No, the NT was not written by Jesus. However, Jesus died around AD33 or thereabouts. The LATEST dates posited for the completion of the Gospels is around AD70. Therefore, we can say that it is likely they were written down earlier, maybe AD50-60. I do not wish to spend too much time on this, but these events were accessible at the time, and immediately after. If the disciples had added stuff Jesus never said, there were thousands of people who could have contradicted them. And Christianity, right off the bat, was one of the most persecuted religions, so you can't argue that there was evidence suppressed.
Again, Rin, I URGE you to read the Bible again, as well as standard apologetic texts, which are not too expensive even if some of them are dry texts.
Posted by: Gregory at May 08, 2008 06:39 PM (cjwF0)
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I kind of dig the Gospels; St. Paul was such a freakin' sexist, it makes him hard to read.
I haven't read the Gospel of John in a long time--I've been hangin' out with the "linear narrative" guys. Could be I'm overdue.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 08, 2008 07:16 PM (Hgnbj)
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I would call 30+ years "decades."
I would also point out that the 4 Gospels vary in tone, emphasis, and details, so, without arguing for suppression or collusion, it's possible to say that the exact words of Jesus may not be perfectly quoted, nor yet quoted without embellishment. Those embellishments are, I'm sure, consistent with his overall message, but that doesn't make every syllable of the Gospels the absolute factual transcription of his message.
As for the facts being available to thousands afterwards, that's true. But not everyone was literate, not everyone had access to what the authors of the Gospels were writing, and not all texts have survived or been included in the Canon. I wouldn't argue for robust fact-checking, in other words.
I believe there are many ways of understanding and following the will of the Divine. Mine may be less formal than yours, but that makes me respect yours no less... and no more, than my own.
Posted by: Rin at May 09, 2008 11:36 AM (bSHZa)
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Decades, yes, but well within the lifespan of eyewitnesses. Which was his point, btw, which you knew, btw. Everything relevant has been included. Not the phony Gnostic 'gospels' of course, because they couldn't even see who was the main character in the life story of Christ. The Jews didn't included Gnostic writings in their texts, either. That's why they glommed on to Christianity. The Gospels vary as most eyewitness accounts vary. Differences with emphasis and minor details, rather than substantiative matters. There are multiple references to earlier written accounts in the historical record, and the surviving Gospels more-than-likely were built around these and oral accounts passed down first and second hand.
Surprisingly, LMA, Luke was associated with Paul. Go figure.
Posted by: Darrell at May 09, 2008 04:02 PM (IBMx9)
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March 23, 2008
Heinleiner?
I'd say
Heinleinian, myself,
Glenn. Pronounced
"Heinlinian," maybe.
I had been meaning to re-read The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, for what that's worth. (No; I'm not going to read SIASL; it's too long, and I have no attention span, except on special occasions. I have read the "notebooks" contained therein, though.)
Yeah, yeah: RAH does overdo the animal-related similes for human behavior, and his characters aren't complex—generally not "round," in the E.M. Forster sense. But for a preachy writer, he's pretty good. He's one of maybe 2-3 SF writers I've actually read a bit of, and somehow his "pulp-ey" streak feels like a virtue.
I mean, it isn't as if every Jane Austen character was drawn to the nth degree, is it? One has to make choices. Books should be short, for one thing: ideally, one reads the entirety of any given novel within a day. (This is why serious readers and writers tend to subsist on foodstuffs that can be eaten with one hand, such as apples and bagels and whatnot.)
Anyway, yeah: I'd love to see what the "fish spinoff" symbol is for a Heinleiner, or whatever we're going to call it. I've been meaning to put a fish on one side of my bumper, and a Buddha on the other—just to see what the people around me are made of.
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My favorite is Starship Troopers. The movie needs to be done correctly.
Posted by: chuck at March 24, 2008 07:56 PM (H4W1a)
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The symbol? It's a fish ..... with feet and holding a wrench.
Posted by: Featherless biped at March 25, 2008 12:49 PM (nIhAH)
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March 18, 2008
Psalms 118:24
One of my favorite Bible verses, as a matter of fact.
King James Bible:
"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
World English Bible:
"This is the day that Yahweh has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it!"
American King James Version:
"This is the day which the LORD has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
American Standard Version:
"This is the day which Jehovah hath made; We will rejoice and be glad in it."
Bible in Basic English:
"This is the day which the Lord has made; we will be full of joy and delight in it."
Douay-Rheims Bible:
"This is the day which the Lord hath made: let us be glad and rejoice therein."
Darby Bible Translation:
"This is the day that Jehovah hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
English Revised Version:
"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995):
"This is the day the LORD has made. Let's rejoice and be glad today!"
Jewish Publication Society Tanakh:
"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Webster's Bible Translation:
"This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Young's Literal Translation:
"This is the day Jehovah hath made, We rejoice and are glad in it."
The NET Bible:
(This is a bitchin' translation available online—very accurate and very well researched; I have it in a print version.)
"This is the day the Lord has brought about.
We will be happy and rejoice in it."
My beloved New American Standard Version:
"This is the day which the LORD has made;
Let us rejoice and be glad in it."
And then there's The Latest Scholarly Translation:
"This is teh day which Ceiling Cat did maked; we will do happy dances and be realy had while we did it."
("Be realy had"? I'm afraid I don't know the LOLCat meaning of "had." But it has to mean "glad.")
UPDATE: Please note that I can't find my "main" Catholic Bible, the NAB translation—anywhere. I suspect You-Know-Who packed it up already in anticipation of our move, but the NAB and the NASB are not that different—save for the inclusion of the "bonus books" in the Catholic version.
The tome I'm reading now is Catholic-approved, Tobit-enabled Bible, but it's a POS paraphrase, which really sucks for the New Testament; it is sometimes helpful, however, with the Old—much as I hate to admit that.
In my next incarnation I'm learning Greek and Hebrew, so I won't be so dependent upon the translators . . . . Whaaaaaaat?
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So. On This Whole LOL Cat Bible Translation . . .
I keep
toggling back and forth between finding it charming and thinking that it's a bit dangerous.
Is the "ceiling cat" an idol, or a cat's-eye view of Yaweh/Allah/the Lord?
(Just a Christian who lost her sense of humor on the intertubes . . . )
I'd love to hear from Christian cat-lovers on the subject, since it appears to be a gray area.
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It's funny for 2.739 nanoseconds. Time to move along.
Posted by: Darrell at March 18, 2008 10:34 AM (NShNQ)
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My "blasphemy meter" is set pretty low. What I've read of it so far is universally hilarious to me.
Posted by: Desert Cat at March 18, 2008 10:54 AM (B2X7i)
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Ok, this would have to be about the touchiest spot in the scriptures, and I can't help thinking it's a pretty clever take:
They was eatings, and Jebus took cheezburgrs and give them to his peepz and sez, "Is my body. It has a flavor. U can has it and go NOM NOM NOM." And he took teh cup, sez thks plz, and gives 2 dem, sez, Drink all of it; Dis my blood k?, Soz U can say srry when U bad kittehz. Now I has no milk wif u, till wez all in the ceiling. K? Invisible karaoke over, they went outside 4 2 play.
I mean, if cats really did talk this way, how else would the translation read to get the message across?
Posted by: Desert Cat at March 18, 2008 10:59 AM (B2X7i)
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"invisible karaoke"? Is that the cat-take on "Passover supper"?
I dunno. It's charming, but almost too sweet for my taste. And there is that other worry in the back of my mind . . . I'm probably getting squeamish in my old age.
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 18, 2008 11:04 AM (Hgnbj)
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I've lived with cats all my life and I like to think of them as being highly intelligent. I'd swear if I didn't know better that they had serious language skills or might even be able to read images in my mind. Of course, when they don't respond as expected, I believe it is willful disobedience. Yes--very similar to my view of women: Only in the latter case I KNOW it is willful.
Would Stephen Hawking talk/write this way? Only with regards to anthropogenic global warming.
Posted by: Darrell at March 18, 2008 01:33 PM (NShNQ)
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the "invisible karaoke" references the hymn that the disciples sang before heading to the garden of Gesthemane.
In re: the Ceiling Cat, I see that as a cat-concept of the Almighty. We use imagery that suggests heaven is in the sky, in the clouds, etc, even though we know it is not within this space-time. Ceiling Cat is the Almighty Cat who lives somewhere above the ceiling.
Posted by: Desert Cat at March 18, 2008 05:43 PM (B2X7i)
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I'm in Luke right now; does that one show up in Luke? I almost think it has to be John, since I had thought I was okay on the "linear" gospels . . . how funny. Downright embarrassing.
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 18, 2008 08:31 PM (Hgnbj)
Posted by: Desert Cat at March 18, 2008 10:02 PM (DIr0W)
Posted by: Desert Cat at March 18, 2008 10:19 PM (DIr0W)
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January 07, 2008
That God Thing.
I finished D'Souza's
What's So Great About Christianity? several days ago, so I'm now reading Christopher Hitchens'
God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything.
I love both these guys. On the whole, I think Hitchens may be the better thinker, but on this topic he has it wrong—D'Souza gets it right. Of course, the two men had slightly different missions. Hitchens wrote a polemic against all religions, which is, I believe, easier to pull off. After all, no faith is devoid of its superstitious moments, and with the world awash in radical Islam right now, it's easy to point out that "religion" has poisoned quite a lot. D'Souza chose the harder task by focusing on one faith—his very own—and writing a spirited defense of it and its place in the intellectual tradition that brought us good things like science, the American Revolution, and dark beer.
Of course, D'Souza isn't carrying socialism around with him everywhere he goes, so in general he probably has it easier. (He has other ridiculous ideas lodged in his cranium instead.)
It's sure a pleasure to read both of these guys. In an interesting way, they make nice companion pieces to Jonathan Rauch's Kindly Inquisitors. In addition to having coined the term "apatheistic" (to which D'Souza makes one or two snide allusions in passing; sigh), Rauch provides a nice history of the framework of free inquiry that we need to preserve, above all else, if Western traditions are going to endure.
Rauch makes the very best case as to why we might not want to spend a lot of time squabbling over religion, for what that is worth.
Even Hitchens claims that all he really wants his religious friends to do is to "leave him alone," and stop confusing his politeness on matters of faith with openness to witness. Both Hitchens and Rauch were clearly shaken—as they had every freaking reason to be—by the fatwa against Salmon Rushdie, and the ghost of that event flits across the pages of both Not Great and Kindly Inquisitors.
When I went to see Salmon Rushdie speak at a book fair one year I had a few pangs of fear. I knew we'd probably have to pass through metal detectors, but I wasn't sure whether or not the building we were in might somehow be detonated from outside. And I was also acutely aware that the fear I was feeling that afternoon was a part of Rushdie's existence 365 days a year, merely because he wrote a silly little piece of religious satire some time back.
"Aw, what the hell," I told my friends. "We have to die from something." And we headed down the hill to hear the man out.
Religion isn't invariably toxic. But, used incorrectly, it can certainly cause a lot of damage. Just like love, which Joni Mitchell once called "the strongest posion and medicine of all."
The problem lies with human nature. Whether this has to do with overdeveloped adrenal glands, as Hitchen maintains, or original sin is not altogether clear to me. But I know it doesn't quite work.
So: people of faith, agnostics, and athiests—let's be careful out there. Be kind to your fellow humans. Promote public inquiry and criticism. And, you know: try not to kill anybody in the name of God.
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It's never been about religion. It's the "Haves" versus the "Have-Nots." The "Want-Mores" versus the "Got Somethings." In the Judeo-Christian world, our Prime Directives are clear on a personal level--"Thou shall not kill," "Thou shall not steal." Without religion and the belief in a final judgment, whole groups of people would not exist today. Billions. And that is a fact.
Funny how hundreds of millions have been killed by those that do not believe in a Divine authority. But those killings do buy you a share of a death sentence should your enemies even return to power, don't they? Initiation into your Death Cult and incentives to make sure your enemies never again prevail.
Islam differs from other religions in that those doing the killing are actually following their prime directives. Those that are not are doing so voluntarily and arbitrarily. We all see where that can lead. Think not? Well let's make taxes voluntary and see what happens.
What bothers me is that I know Hitchens is smarter than all that (and me) and I wonder what his motivation might be. He will never "prove" that God doesn't exist and he surely knows that. I will never be able to prove that God does, no matter what I offer. Perhaps Hitchens only realizes what sells with today's publishers. Can't fault anybody for being a Capitalist, can I?
Posted by: Darrell at January 07, 2008 12:39 PM (napaI)
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The real murderer in human history have been government, not religion. The violent period of every religion comes when its alleged adherents gain political power. Christianity went from being the most persecuted religion on earth to being a primary persecutor at the very moment it gained secular authority, and quit being the persecutor when it lost that authority.
Islam has been a persistently violent religion precisely because its adherents have always held that there be no separation of religious and secular authority.
Communism and Nazism were also episodes in which the secular authority was overtly aligned with a particular religious viewpoint, in this case Communism's strident atheism, or Nazism's deification of race.
Posted by: John at January 07, 2008 01:29 PM (W6jiZ)
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And yet the Saudis funded violent extremist Islam as part of a gamble that they themselves would not be taken over if they simply appeased the extremists.
Posted by: Attila Girl at January 07, 2008 02:03 PM (QCozz)
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In a few years here, assuming one of those lovely Democrats are in the White House, we may find ourselves being arrested for our comments like this chap. . .
http://wolfhowling.blogspot.com/2008/01/britains-prosecution-of-blogger.html
Assuming we still call the Presidential residence the White House, of course, no matter which of them wins. Hey. Everyone thought those college sports team names and mascots were forever too!
Posted by: Darrell at January 07, 2008 11:21 PM (uolFW)
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May 23, 2007
Question for Today:
Why is it that people who believe in astrology—really, really believe it—are so annoying?
I'm being no more rational than they are when I integrate Fung Shui into the way I arrange my furniture, so this isn't a left brain vs. right brain thing.
I suppose it irritates me because in some cases it appears to be a substitute for real religion, and a poor one at that.
Discuss.
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Stupidity kills thousands of people every day, and often it doesn't stop with the stupid person.
Those of us who are not stupid realize that a stupid person is dangerous not only to himself/herself, but to us as well.
Consequently, when we find that a person is inflicted by that form of stupidity known as belief in astrology, we get our mental guard up to protect ourselves. That guard is first experienced as annoyance.
Posted by: John at May 23, 2007 06:06 PM (UNZcj)
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Fate vs. Free Will.
Free Will is life.
Fate is death, it's followers are zombies (remember the video?).
Zombies are annoying.
-B
Posted by: Bob at May 23, 2007 07:08 PM (aTv/9)
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I'd expect a Cancer to say that!
Posted by: Darrell at May 23, 2007 09:48 PM (d/aUJ)
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Confronted by my rather un-Cancer-like personality, the die-hard astrology people always tell me that they knew all along that "it must have been a water sign."
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 23, 2007 10:20 PM (VgDLl)
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But, you were giving them a golden shower, right?
Posted by: Darrell at May 24, 2007 07:52 AM (KgDxt)
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I totally disagree that Feng Shui isn't rational. A basic model -- home tucked just down from the top of the hill, facing a plane with water body ahead. It's a survival strategy for our forebears in the old red-in-tooth-and-claw days so they can see their enemies approaching before the enemy sees them. The fact that it feeds the soul is probably related.
Posted by: Sissy Willis at May 24, 2007 01:19 PM (Q6JEL)
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May 15, 2007
So. Christians.
Likely to start making death threats and
setting off bombs? I hope not, but it's certainly happened, and more recently than a lot of Americans remember. (Cough, cough . . . Ireland . . . cough, cough.)
But Reynolds' point is that any religious sect that wants special privileges can now look at the behavior practiced by Islamists, and get pretty much exact guidance on how to obtain that kid-glove treatment. Hindus, Jews, Paganists, practitioners of Native American faiths: anyone can pick up those tools and use 'em, if we keep offering a special status to fundamentalist Muslims.
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One difference between Muslim violence and Christian violence is that there is no Bible verse commanding Christians to commit violence for any reason. There are commands in the Old Testament to kill certain people at certain times, but they are all directed at situations in which no Christian finds himself.
On the other hand, the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-Muslims left, right, and center. If they're not Muslim, it's open season.
Posted by: John at May 15, 2007 04:01 PM (8+dz3)
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Except that the United States attacked the Middle East first
Posted by: Jaguar b. p. at May 16, 2007 04:55 AM (mA9xG)
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Really Jaguar,
When did this happen. Sir Han Sir Han killed RFK in 1968. When did we attack them?
We went into Lebanon to help stop the civil war, attacked no one and had 240 marines killed. Who did we attack?
Until 9/11, the only truly middle eastern country we attacked was Iraq and that was because he had invaded another country.
Sure we bombed Libya, but they had a hand in a Berlin club bombing that killed soldiers. Not to mention Lockerbie.
So please do tell oh sainted one, when did we attack the Middle East?
Posted by: James Stephenson at May 16, 2007 05:26 AM (03dXc)
4
jaguar? I find your troll-fu
lacking.
Attilla Girl: while "The Troubles" has always been presented as a clash of religions, it's more to do with last 'vestige of Empire.' The Brits left everywhere except--for no reason that made any sense--those last few northern counties.
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at May 16, 2007 06:04 AM (pnY28)
5
Neither history, philosophy, nor theology matter to the people drawing these moral equivalencies.
The moral order of the West is based on Christianity. Every time the West has opposed Christian principles, Christianity has provided the moral critique by which the West has been corrected. (This holds true from the time that rising Christian influence ended Roman paterfamilias and infanticide, through the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence, all the way to Wilberforce and MLK.) But the moral-equivalence elitists cannot abide any moral order that transcends State will-to-power or opposes the zeitgeist, so they hate Christianity.
There's an old joke, "fascism is always descending upon America but somehow always lands in Europe". Well, the West always has its eyes trained against attacks from Christianity, but somehow the attack always manages to come from Islam.
Posted by: craig at May 16, 2007 06:11 AM (KeutY)
6
The Crusader occupation of the Arabian Peninsula, the propping up of puppet dictators and plunder of oil, the support of the Zionist bandit state,
the tormenting of Iraq with sanctions
That's all pre-2001, you know the rest. The attack on Iraq and murder of half a million people over invisible WMD, 2003-present.
Posted by: Jaguar b. p. at May 16, 2007 06:18 AM (mA9xG)
7
Jaguar - can I call you Jaguar? - there's so much historical innaccuracy and incompleteness - plus one outright lie - in that "summation" that I'm going to be charitable and assume you're just not very intelligent or well-read.
Posted by: Rocketeer at May 16, 2007 07:45 AM (GFaLW)
8
Yeah, TC--I do realize that the troubles were more cultural and political than religious. And yet, when I hear people identify "the real Irish" strictly by their belonging to a particular Church (the one I belong to, in fact), it bothers me. It clouds the issue. I brought Ireland up only because it is an example of self-declared Christians behaving in an un-Christian way--and since I was raised Methodist, I'll just point out that the behavior of the Orangemen who parade through Catholic neighborhoods is outrageous.
Which brings me to Craig's point, and John's. I understand that the Lord was perfectly explicit on this point: turn the other cheek. But the Old Testament is less oriented toward forgiveness--yet Jews do not tend to behave aggressively. So it isn't just a matter of what is said in Scripture, or other holy writings. It also has to do with socialization.
In the West, everyone--Christians, Jews, Unitarians, Wiccans, etc. etc.--socializes young boys (and girls) to channel their innate aggression into productive activity--and if they can't, to write bad poetry about it.
In many of the Islamic-influenced extremist subcultures, raw aggression is touted as a virtue, and murder is praised.
So the fact that huge numbers of Muslims live perfectly quiet lives in pursuit of their own happiness tends to be obscured by the fact that others are setting off bombs.
My main point is, if we make concessions to the bombers--such as by censoring material that offends them, when the equivalent anti-Christian (anti-anything) material is widely available, we are setting the stage for world-wide civil war.
Because it's just a matter of time before another religious sect picks up the bomb-making equipment and goes after parity.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 16, 2007 10:48 AM (3F7vn)
9
"My main point is, if we make concessions to the bombers-..."
Agreed. Which drives my Ma (borne in Eire) absolutley nuts when it comes to me. I want Gerry Adams run out of town on a rail.
Accepting him, a la Arafat, is what made me loathe Bubba Clinton. Same as that douche Paisley, et al, there are certain people who should just be shunned.
Like me, when my backyard barbecues get out of control!
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at May 16, 2007 11:44 AM (pnY28)
10
"The Crusader occupation of the Arabian Peninsula,"
The Crusaders conquered what is today called Palestine. They most certainly did *not* occupy the Arabian peninsula.
"
he propping up of puppet dictators"
Since the people who wanted to rule in the stead of the "puppet dictators" are every bit the dictator themselves, this is like replacing a red house with a red house.
"and plunder of oil,"
Every drop of oil taken from the Middle East by westerners was paid for.
"the support of the Zionist bandit state,"
Dude, the Arabs who lived there in 1947 were too poor to be worth robbing. In every war between Arabs and Jews, the Arabs have fired the first shot. *EVERY* *TIME*.
"the tormenting of Iraq with sanctions"
No, it was Saddam who tormented Iraq.
"That's all pre-2001, you know the rest."
Yes, we removed a dictator who was sponsoring terrorism (he did offer bounties to the families of suicide bombers, you know).
"The attack on Iraq and murder of half a million people"
I doubt that even ten percent of the Iraqis who have died in Iraq since 2003 died from American action, and the vast majority of those were shooting at Americans at the time.
The rest were killed by other Iraqis or foreign Muslims, who are violating the word of the prophet for no higher purpose than to keep one Muslim nation from having a government that is not based on the rule of the strong over the weak.
"over invisible WMD"
The WMD was quite visible when it was hanging from the end of a rope in Iraq some time ago.
Posted by: John at May 16, 2007 05:36 PM (Pw7+/)
11
Better example: Eric Rudolph.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) at May 18, 2007 05:13 AM (PXthX)
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March 23, 2007
Friday Night Lenten Supper:
Steamed asparagus with balsamic vinegar. A dry martini.
But no meat.
Am I doing this correctly? I don't seem to have any flair for Catholicism whatsoever.
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1
heh. Of course. You remembered the alcohol.
Posted by: caltechgirl at March 23, 2007 10:14 PM (r0kgl)
2
I don't like asparagus. But you did get the martini right.
Posted by: Cappy at March 24, 2007 06:11 AM (OPdak)
3
As a recovering papist, Fridays always meant fish. Most of the time, that meant fish sticks.
I'd have a white wine, not the martini.
Posted by: Bloggermouth at March 24, 2007 07:58 AM (s8YHF)
4
I would prefer you go with complete proteins for main meals unless you're going with a fortified gin. Otherwise, carry on.
Posted by: Darrell at March 24, 2007 10:03 AM (bmopZ)
5
Dad was Irish/Catholic and Mom was Jewish - so l speak with some authority of the concept of "guilt". (Our family motto: "Guilt is Good!")
That said, as a practicing Catholic (will I ever get it right?) Allow me to congratilate your Lenten dinner choices! I hope you garnished that martini correctly with two olives or three cocktail onions!! We could increase your verggie count on the new food pyramid with those additions!!
Posted by: mighty aphrodite at March 24, 2007 10:53 AM (13j7o)
6
Well, D--I had a snack earlier in the evening at my mother's place that contained plenty of tofu. And her idea of a snack is my idea of a meal.
Mighty--It was a dirty martini, and all I have on hand are small olives, so I put a few in a little Japanese teacup and ate them with a toothpick as I drank.
And I got all
my guilt from my Methodist upbringing. Protestant guilt is so underappreciated
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 24, 2007 11:39 AM (0CbUL)
7
I wouldn't have the martini, but that's what the parents always had. When mom comes for dinner (a couple of times a month), I always offer the glass of ice and the Tanqueray, and she always enjoys it.
Posted by: Mark In Irvine at March 24, 2007 04:19 PM (mMjjU)
8
Obviously not a Wisconsin girl where Fridays are all about the fish fry and cold beer.
Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at March 24, 2007 04:57 PM (QJ5cf)
9
Ick. Seafood.
Hey--is there any truth in the story that fish on Fridays was originated to assist the seafood industry, and if so did that occur here, or in Ireland?
(Yeah--I could use Wikipedia, or a search engine. But what fun is that?)
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 24, 2007 07:46 PM (0CbUL)
10
It's tradition, but you could get stick with the potato pancakes.
Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at March 24, 2007 10:02 PM (QJ5cf)
11
You can't fool me; potato pancakes are Jewish! (And yummy, too.)
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 25, 2007 02:06 AM (0CbUL)
12
This speaks for itself...
http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/comments/muskrat_dispensation/
Posted by: leelu at March 25, 2007 03:25 PM (KFuCy)
13
People like to invoke conspiracies, don't they. The best explanation I heard is that 1st Century Jews fasted on Mondays and Thursdays. There is a passage in the Gospel about John the Baptist's followers questioning Jesus over not observing those fasts, as practiced by the Pharisees and even JtB's followers. Jesus told them the time will come for the fast after the Bridegroom is taken. Those who converted to Christianity shifted that to Wednesdays and Fridays to commemorate Judas arranging Jesus' arrest on Wednesday and his Crucifixion on a Friday. That explains the fasting. Since meat was a rich man's food, requiring sizable amounts of land for raising animals or money to purchase the meat, simpler foods were substituted for the premium fare. Anyone can fish a stream or river, and forage for fruit and such. I am looking into Nancy Pelosi's role in the matter, particularly in American Samoa.
Posted by: Darrell at March 25, 2007 08:41 PM (jnJd2)
14
I wouldn't have paid any attention, but I heard the notion from my mother, who doesn't usually buy into conspiracy theories.
Anyway, it's healthy to have one day a week when one eats veggie or sticks with fish--the fish is particularly healthy, with the Omega-3s and whatnot.
I have to be careful about actual fasting, though: I once tried to go to Stations of the Cross on an empty stomach, and nearly fainted. Low blood sugar isn't spiritual; it's stupid.
Posted by: Attila Girl at March 25, 2007 09:43 PM (0CbUL)
15
I'm a lurker and I'm coming out of the woodwork to say: the word "papist" isn't funny, it's a term used for centuries by bigots of all stripes to denigrate us and spread the eternal lie that Catholics worship the Pope. Please, don't use that word, not even as a joke.
::Retreating back into woodwork now. =):::
Posted by: Verity Kindle at March 29, 2007 09:30 AM (8MztE)
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January 25, 2007
Jonathan Rauch Rawks!
Here he is on
what is to be done about gay marriage.
He may not change your mind, but he will challenge you.
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If he wants to change my mind, he needs to avoid oversimplifying the issue in the first paragraph of his essay.
Posted by: John at January 25, 2007 02:43 PM (kAzFZ)
2
I beg your pardon, LMA, he does not rock. He completely
omits the original basis of marriage.
Marriage began first as a cultural (and later legal) framework
for the protection of the rights of children and childbearers.
It has somehow morphed into an expansion of rights for
people who only want to live together. The only requirement
today is that they be of opposite sex.
We have already read the plan of the Canadian progressives,
first to make any kind of union legal, and then to do
away with the entire thing as unnecessary. I'm not
making this up. (I'll find the link later, in the meantime,
google is your freind.)
So, the people fighting for gay marriage are the
(unwitting?) pawns of those who want to do away
the entire thing.
Why bother?
-Bob
p.s. i've been quite amused by the recent "gay divorce"
horror stories. be careful what you wish for ...
Posted by: Bob at January 25, 2007 06:07 PM (2tBSJ)
3
You can get enough here to find the rest yourself.
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz200602030805.asp
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at January 25, 2007 06:37 PM (2tBSJ)
4
Come on, now, Bob: you're oversimplifying a bit. For many centuries women were regarded as the possessions of their husbands. I understand that you're pointing out marriage (theoretically) prevented the man from deserting the women he impregnated and all the issue therefrom, but to say it was ALL about protecting women and children is a bit much.
Posted by: Attila Girl at January 26, 2007 01:17 AM (0CbUL)
5
LMA,
I didn't say it was _ALL_ about protecting women and
children, I said it began as such.
It is as if Rauch is explaining the game of baseball and
starts at second base. You can't steal first base.
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at January 26, 2007 10:51 AM (2tBSJ)
6
I really don't have much problem with same-sex marriage except for one thing: Please keep your sex lives to yourselves and don't force your view of it on me and, especially, on my children. The homosexual "lifestyle" is not something that needs to be in our schools.
Posted by: John at January 26, 2007 11:09 AM (lO8Xg)
7
When, Bob? When was that magical moment at which marriage was only about protecting women and children? Because to me in the very beginning it appears that marriage was about men owning women as much as "protecting" them.
Posted by: Attila Girl at January 26, 2007 01:14 PM (0CbUL)
8
LMA,
It appears I've touched an emotional nerve. I can't reason against emotion.
It seems to me that owning other people is called slavery.
Since slavery was also in place at the advent of history,
why would it have been necessary to have two forms of
slavery?
Marriage has always -- from the very beginning --
established the property rights of heirs and survivors. Ownership, or slavery, has specifically
"dis-established" the rights of the owned parties.
Most concubines were slaves, they were not
generally referred to as wives. Their children were sold.
As far as being "magical" is concerned, i have difficulty
with that notion. Marriage out of affection is a fairly
recent development and primarily exists in westernized
cultures. Arranged marriages are hardly magical for
many of the participants. Since they were arranged
by parents with ulterior motives, the corruption of
the "magical moment" with ulterior motives was
probably immediate, if not sooner.
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at January 26, 2007 02:34 PM (2tBSJ)
9
So maybe women had some input in this marriage thing from its inception? Could it have been a "social contract"? I agree to do this in exchange for this, this, and this. . .Hmmm. What a novel idea! Putting the weight of law and the courts behind it just made it all work out as agreed upon.
I"d be more eager to vote for same-sex marriage if the feminists in the 60's hadn't suggested gay marriage as the first step to ridding society of all marriage. Since marriage is just a contract, what is wrong with creating individual contacts that convey all the same rights? Lawyers in major cities have been putting together standardized packages that do just that for years. And for as low as $200-300. Fine. If you must, go with civil unions where the packages are created by the State. I'll even let you call it "marryage" like in that movie "Pursuit of Happyness." But, that's it.
Posted by: Darrell at January 26, 2007 10:00 PM (gYyMl)
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January 01, 2007
Oopsie Daisie.
Turns out
Jesus didn't exist after all, because it took a while for the Gospel stories to be written down.
I wonder if those who don't believe the accuracy of documents that had origins in oral history are willing to apply this standard to any other sort of anthropological study. It's a new approach to sociology! "That's an oral tradition, not written down within the five years allowable. No facts may be contained therein. Sorry!"
And what's this about the Gospel of Mark being the sole source for the other three gospels? This is very sloppy: I could have done better myself. Actually, I'll be handling all the psuedo-scholarly Christianity "debunking" around here from now on. ("Jesus never existed! My imaginary friend Binker told me so.")
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1
By that same token, lots of historical people did not exist. I could not find one mention of Buddha or Mohammad in any Roman historical accounts of the day.
The Gospels did survive and any other prior historical accounts didn't. Not surprising since there was a persecution going on.
The "God Project" at Loyola University in Chicago is the center of inter-faith 'scholarship' in these matters. They say the Last Supper never happened. Why? Did they find records indicating that Jesus as already in custody on Thursday? No. They say "does Jesus look like the kind of guy that would throw a dinner party?" You can't argue with scholarship like that.
Posted by: Darrell at January 01, 2007 08:03 AM (GeyHm)
2
Silly human(ist)s. They refute themselves.
-B
Posted by: Bob at January 01, 2007 09:47 AM (2tBSJ)
3
I loved the fact that in the clip they asked people how the Gospel was spread initially, and got two answers: the Holy Spirit, and "word of mouth."
The question was vague, so the answers were a little vague. They did not, for example, have the balls to ask Christians: "when do you think the first written Gospel was composed?" It was perfectly clear that the Christians in the clips knew the Gospel initially spread as oral history.
Was any device ever so transparent?
Posted by: Attila Girl at January 01, 2007 02:20 PM (zxOEV)
4
http://www.locksley.com/locksley/picts.htm
You can prove anything with enough logic .....
Posted by: J. Bethancourt at January 02, 2007 02:41 PM (4m8QD)
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November 17, 2006
Calling All Christians
A woman from my writer's group asks how those who live a religious life reconcile taking a vow of poverty with the relationships all Catholics have with Rome, and its concentration of wealth.
I'd also put the same question to Protestants whose denominations are particularly prosperous: hwo do you process the Lord's admonitions about how dangerous wealth is, and justapose that with some members of the clergy living large? What about the pastor who ministers in a poor neighborhood, and lives as his congregation does, versus the minister in a wealthier area, whose fundraising activities demand that he eat at nice restaurants, etc.?
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In our faith group (the Church of Christ), we simply let the careers of those who become too wealthy or famous be our object lesson; whether in the brotherhood or without, when their heads get turned by money or fame, their souls get turned away from the Lord's ways.
Posted by: John at November 17, 2006 05:18 PM (y1Zrd)
2
It isn't the money. It's the love of money that corrupts. There's nothing wrong with being filthy stinkin rich. It's how you live your life that counts.
Which ought to include a generous portion of charity if you are, in fact, quite comfortable materially. No hard and fast rules here, it's just how the universe works. You let your head get turned by wealth, and your soul suffers.
As to wealthy ministers, they are suspect by default in my book. If you're living better than your flock, you are a thief, and no true shepherd. That goes for big name telly-e-vangelists as well as rich denominations like the Catholic Church. It doesn't matter if you're an individual or a worldwide organisation, we were admonished to not store up our wealth on earth.
On the other hand, if you're a habitual giver, it is very likely that God is going to bless your stinkin' socks off, because he's found in you a conduit through which to bless others.
And if your pastor is doing fundraising by hosting wealthy parishioners at expensive restaurants, I...words just fail me. That's wrong on so many levels. First, parishioners spring for the *pastor* not vice versa. Second, fundraising ought not be a separate activity from preaching, teaching, and ministering. Once your congregation gets hold of the truth that you can't out-give God, then support for the church becomes a mostly non-issue.
Posted by: Desert Cat at November 17, 2006 06:23 PM (xdX36)
3
Purveyors of Poverty Vows are immediately suspect of simply being on the opposite side of the same
corruption coin. Pride in poverty vows is a virtue?
Or is it simply sinful pride, the handmaiden of envy?
I am not a Catholic, but an old Catholic priest once told
me that material abundance always follows Spiritual
abundance (witness Job and Abraham). As does healing,
etc. "By their fruits ye shall know them." No fruits, no Spirit. That simple.
On a decidedly non-Christian note,
I appreciate the way Wallace Wattles dismissed poverty:
"WHATEVER may be said in praise of poverty, the fact remains that it is not possible to live a really complete or successful life unless one is rich. No man can rise to his greatest possible height in talent or soul development unless he has plenty of money; for to unfold the soul and to develop talent he must have many things to use, and he cannot have these things unless he has money to buy them with."
...
"There is nothing wrong in wanting to get rich. The desire for riches is really the desire for a richer, fuller, and more abundant life; and that desire is praise worthy. The man who does not desire to live more abundantly is abnormal, and so the man who does not desire to have money enough to buy all he wants is abnormal."
...
"To live fully in soul, man must have love; and love is denied expression by poverty."
The excerpts from are "The Science of Getting Rich",
(decidedly non-Christian)
the book may be read online at
http://wallacewattles.wwwhubs.com/rich.htm .
-Bob.
Posted by: Bob at November 17, 2006 06:59 PM (jZ67n)
4
Oops, that last bit should have been
"The excerpts are from ..."
Also the " (decidedly non-Christian)"
was a cut and paste error that snuck in, and should have
been omitted.
-b
Posted by: Bob at November 17, 2006 07:28 PM (jZ67n)
5
Relationship Catholics have with Rome? Wealth? Where? The buildings? The art and other things created by artists(or commissioned by patrons)designed to glorify God and donated to the Church for safekeeping and to be enjoyed by all for generations to come? That wealth isn't what economists call liquid(closeness to cash). You got to see Pope John Paul II's quarters last year in his final hours. A simple room, no larger than an average master bedroom, with a plain double bed, a small plain desk and a couple of chairs. He was known to have simple tastes as well--familiar food for him-country-style Polish and Italian food.
The question itself is based on anti-Catholic sentiments. No religious organization has ever given more to the poor than the Catholic Church. If the buildings/land/art had been sold when originally donated to the Church, defying the givers' wishes, very little money would have been raised and that money would have been long gone. And I would be willing to bet, so would the buildings and art. And, yet, the poor would still be with us. Funny how that works. The clergy and other religious devote their lives to helping others--I've known many. Sixty years of always being there for others with no compensation other than daily meals and a new shirt and a pair of pants every year. And a pair of shoes every couple of years. Oh, and five dollars a month for stationery and postage to keep in touch with family and friends. Wow--now that's a life of luxury!
Let every religious group sell all their assets and hold Sunday services under the viaducts and expressway overpasses. See you there! If Father John isn't up yet, give his cardboard box a nudge...He'll appreciate it.
Posted by: Darrell at November 17, 2006 09:09 PM (8gtuV)
6
It isn't the money. It's the love of money that corrupts.
THANK YOU. DC, everyone always loves to misquote that - and in the process, miss the whole damn point.
Posted by: k at November 17, 2006 10:18 PM (lCUKc)
7
And Bob - I disagree with you and Wallace Wattles, absolutely, totally, completely.
Posted by: k at November 17, 2006 10:23 PM (lCUKc)
8
Darrell makes a point that can be broadened to a point that eludes the Left to this day. If we simply grabbed all of the wealth of the US and gave it to the poor, it would serve to feed them for only the briefest time, and also increase the number of the poor by 300 million.
Posted by: John at November 18, 2006 06:46 AM (vfKsS)
9
"Vows of poverity" is not Biblical. Roman Catholics equate poveity with piety and holiness, which have no basis in the Bible.
While Fundamentalists view properity as a ministry. To be good stewarts of what God has given you.
Many men of faith were wealthy, and they were able to use that wealth for good.
Posted by: Bloggermouth at November 18, 2006 09:37 AM (Hg20K)
10
"Blessed are you poor; the reign of God is yours" (Luke 6:20).
"None of you can be my disciple if he does not renounce all his possessions" (Luke 14:33).
"Whoever wishes to be my follower must deny his very self, take up his cross each day, and follow in my steps. Whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it" (Luke 9:23-24).
"To labor to earn one's own keep is right, to desire more is covetousness."The Rich Fool(Parable).
"Why so large a cost, having so short a lease
Dost thou upon thy fading mansion spend? . . . within be fed, without be rich no more."Shakespeare's take on the above.
And so many more. The point is possessions in themselves are neither inherently good or bad; it is the choices that one makes concerning them that determines their significance. Two basic strands of thought permeate the gospels- renunciation is absolutely necessary for a disciple because possessions can be an obstacle and a danger in the spiritual life. And the proper use of material goods that are nonessential to the disciple is to be manifested in the positive act of helping those in need.
That being said, if we all had nothing-if we gave it all away-the only help we could give would be good intentions. And Luke might have invented communism. Putting a number on what John(above) said, if we took away the wealth of everyone in the world who was "rich"(I think defined as a $million or more)and divided it up among everyone remaining--each person would receive a grand sum of $600, according to the last calculation I recall. And that doesn't factor in all those possessions hitting the market at the same time--which would deflate their value immensely. Not to mention the lack of buyers that situation would create.
Posted by: Darrell at November 18, 2006 10:26 AM (OwUxV)
11
Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
Job 42:10
After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD made him prosperous again and gave him twice as much as he had before.
Genesis 18:18
Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him.
Matthew 7:9
"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
-B
Posted by: Bob at November 18, 2006 04:53 PM (jZ67n)
12
"Vows of poverity" is not Biblical. Roman Catholics equate poveity with piety and holiness, which have no basis in the Bible.
Oh, contraire. I would say that it is very Biblical.
A man may have two masters. He will hate one and love the other.
For that reason, most Catholic priests are not married.
A matter of...rendering to God what is God's.
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at November 18, 2006 06:30 PM (1hM1d)
13
Hm. I do think the person who posed that question may not have thought it through completely.
But the degree to which wealth is/can be consistent with spiritual growth is an interesting one.
My own emotions are mixed: on the one hand, I think some detachment from the pursuit of wealth is a sign of mental health/spiritual strength.
On the other hand, idolizing poverty can, in practice, have disastrous results: producing things people want and need often leads to prosperity, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. The attitude that prosperity is evil in and of itself is simply wrong-headed.
I guess I believe in material comfort as a positive thing, provided it isn't pursued single-mindedly and without ethics.
Posted by: Attila Girl at November 18, 2006 09:44 PM (LEEsJ)
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October 31, 2006
There Are So Many Things
. . . that aren't bad in and of themselves—only that they open the door to more of the same. That was always my argument against goofing off at work (or, at least, without making up the time that evening, or that weekend): once you get into a habit like that, it's hard to stop. Then you feel guilty, and the pendulum swings back the other way.
One is against compulsive drivenness, but also against sloth. And all these things, not to put too much of a Protestant point on it, are insidious.
And so—back to work.
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October 26, 2006
Down at the Church
I'm looking into becoming a Eucharistic Minister at my church.
1) This ministry is now under the direction of the most conservative (legalistic, I want to say) priest there.
2) There is a dress code, and I shall have to scrounge up non-tight dress slacks, and/or skirts that fall below my knees.
3) It is hyper-Catholic, and involves all kinds of arcane terminology.
4) I'll have to learn to genuflect properly.
In short, I'm scared shitless. I'm very likely doing the right thing.
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1
... you know, that is really, really cool....
Posted by: Eric at October 26, 2006 12:39 PM (NlzwQ)
2
No.
But hey, maybe that's just me.
Posted by: k at October 26, 2006 12:51 PM (lCUKc)
3
Look up "Eucharist Minister" in the Bible. If you don't find it, don't go for it, because you probably won't be doing anyone any good.
Posted by: John at October 26, 2006 06:05 PM (f5QJI)
4
Go for it!
It isn't "hyper-Catholic," just Catholic--just like you agreed.
Isn't it time to commit fully?
Know how many people in times past would have given anything to get the chance you have been given? For centuries, you would have had to have been ordained to handle the Body and Blood of Christ. A lot of people missed that opportunity! Certain roles carry certain responsibilities, and appropriate dress and demeanor certainly are a part of that equation. Besides, you get to shop for clothes, as your bonus!
Just like in the Bible!
Where it says "Do this in remembrance of Me..."
P.S. I would think that LMA was made to genuflect--Built close to the ground with lightening reflexes. Am I missing something?
Posted by: Darrell at October 26, 2006 06:42 PM (X52Zv)
5
Ah--so I just think of it as a form of T'ai Chi, and I'll be fine

It turns out I do indeed have skirts that fall below my knees.
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 27, 2006 07:33 PM (LEEsJ)
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October 24, 2006
Have You Ever Said To Yourself,
"you know, I'm not going to be an asshole any longer," and then discovered that turning over a new leaf has merely transformed you into an entirely different sort of asshole?
I wonder if this is part of my Protestant heritage—a hangover from the traditional delusion that humans are somehow perfectable.
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To your own self be true.
Trying not to be an asshole is to betray yourself. No matter what your position, no matter what your opinion, someone will consider you an asshole for it.
Be true to yourself, don't care, be the asshole you were ment to be. It works for me.
Posted by: Jack at October 25, 2006 10:54 AM (18cd2)
2
I wonder if this is part of my Protestant heritage—a hangover from the traditional delusion that humans are somehow perfectable.
Hmmmm...I would have thought that the traditional Protestant view would be that
some people are
predestined for perfection, and that some are predestined to be
assholes.
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at October 25, 2006 01:54 PM (1hM1d)
3
I know I'm a much better asshole today than I used to be.
Posted by: Desert Cat at October 25, 2006 08:51 PM (xdX36)
Posted by: k at October 26, 2006 12:53 PM (lCUKc)
5
>the traditional delusion that humans are somehow perfectable.
Hell- they're not even manageable.
Posted by: Barry at October 29, 2006 01:43 PM (kKjaJ)
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Still Reading Mark.
It's so different to read the gospels as an adult—and to take them seriously as biographies. I know I have friends who think Jesus was an unbalanced rabbi with charisma, but when I look at his maturity, and his willingness to die with dignity at the age of 33, it's difficult to look at the man's life and not be convinced that he was exactly what he said he was.
Jesus Christ the man was a major stud. A total badass. If he was not—is not—God, he was also completely insane, of course.
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That's the only two choices he gave us, Jesus either is who he says he is, or he's crazier than a rabid rat.
anybody trying to take a middle of the road stance concerning him either never read the gospels, or is dishonest, or both.
Posted by: Mark Krauss at October 24, 2006 04:29 PM (fSPlQ)
2
Sometimes it has to do with the power of wishful thinking.
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 24, 2006 05:38 PM (LEEsJ)
3
Was it Neville Goddard who recommended reading the Gospels
as if (in your imagination) you were Jesus reading your own
biography? Something about your imagination was your
connection to the Spirit of God?
Posted by: Bob at October 24, 2006 06:41 PM (jZ67n)
4
I don't recall that, but I do remember reading an interesting book by Dorothy L. Sayers called
The Mind of the Maker, in which she maintained that writers of fiction may have special insight into God's own consciousness.
Of course, Sayers had big brass ovaries.
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 24, 2006 10:39 PM (LEEsJ)
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October 15, 2006
The Gospel of Mark
What a gallop through the life of Christ.
This is rather a weird thought, because despite being fully man, Jesus was also fully God. However, He was fully man, and I find myself thinking, "hey, this guy was one mature dude. I mean, his act was tight. He had it together."
Or as Frederick Buechner once put it: "when we say that people are 'with it,' the 'it' they are with is God."*
* From memory, so it might be a slight paraphrase.
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I find Mark reads like a rough draft of Matthew and Luke. Beyond that I classify Mark, Matthew & Luke as the "Sportscenter Gospels" because they are the highlights of Jesus' top Plays. Meanwhile I file John as the "Lifetime Gospel" because its far more interested in capturing every detail of the stories it tells.
Posted by: the Pirate at October 16, 2006 12:57 PM (tM0AO)
2
There's a reason Mark reads like a "rough draft" of Mt and Lk.

Of course, to me it seems more like an outline.
This is my first time all the way through the gospels in a few years, I'm embarrassed to say. I really dug Matthew, because of its completeness and its rigor.
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 16, 2006 02:30 PM (LEEsJ)
3
Yeah, outline is a better term to use.
I haven't read them through in quite a few years, but read them a ton thanks to the Jesuits...
I find John the most interesting just cause its so different from the other three.
Posted by: the Pirate at October 16, 2006 02:37 PM (tM0AO)
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October 12, 2006
It's Finally Here!
My
NET Bible arrived yesterday; it's a modern translation, a la NASB, with more notes in it than any other Bible out there. I splurged and got leather, and even got my name engraved on the front (I intend to use this volume for the rest of my life).
This is the most amazing ministry, and I'm glad to support it by purchasing a physical Bible from these people. They essentially are committed to making scriptures available all over the world, truly harnessing the power of the internet in promoting reading/study of the Word.
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Your Bible sounds nice, but for some reason when you mentioned you had your name put on it, it remined me of Mose and his Bible sales pitch in "Paper Moon" . LOL
Enjoy it anyway. Tatum O'Neil is all grown up and her Bible sales didn't seem to affect her in the long run, so your purchase should turn out great.
Posted by: clyde at October 12, 2006 02:23 PM (6m+7s)
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October 03, 2006
I Haven't Said
. . . anything about the Amish school shooting. I know I've had the same moment of sheer homicidal rage most decent people have experienced when hearing the story, but I also know that I don't pretend to have an antidote to human evil: my mission as a political animal is to keep it from becoming widespread, as it is in North Korea and as it is in the nations/areas that employ Sharia law.
But Kat has a solid Christian take on that heart-wrenching event.
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Attila... thank you. I'm glad that any small thoughts I might have are helpful.
Keeping the victims and their families in prayer...
-- Kat
www.CatHouseChat.com
Posted by: Kat at October 03, 2006 05:46 PM (Bdli+)
2
When a government goes to war and it is senseless and without justification. Then there is an increase in violence in the country that is the aggressor. The rationale behind it is that Anger is multiplying and the law of universal Karma states that you get back what you put out. Whats with all these innocent people dying in the US? I say it is the direct result of our involvement in IRAQ. Stop the madness over there and it will stop here. We are now experiencing the indirect cost of the war. Human life is devalued when a nation goes to war without justification.
Posted by: Azmat Hussain at October 03, 2006 06:25 PM (h+X/7)
3
Azmat;
You're wrong, it's because the newspapers and tv are glorifing these actions. After the initial attack the victims are forgotten but the attacker is pictured and rumenated over for years. Oh dear,... we have to find out why he did it, what was he thinking, etc.
Thank god the ACLU isn't going to save this piece of trash.
And p.s. there were lots of reasons to go after Iraq, like shooting at our jets weekly, violating all of the UN mandates etc..
And p.p.s. Karma works both ways, think of the USA as bringing Karma to Sadam for all of his torture, rapes, and killings. Sadam is the one who devalued human life. The USA is just Karma's way of telling Sadam and his sons they were wrong and to die. And now were just bringing Karma to all those Islamic fascists.
Posted by: Jack at October 03, 2006 07:29 PM (c2Zx9)
4
Oh well then...If it never happened before 2003 I guess we should pull out! Wait. What about that seldom-heard-of incident called "Columbine"? (1999)....Or that wacko in Montreal? or..
• April 24, 2003: 14-year-old James Sheets shot and killed the principal in the crowded cafeteria of a junior high school in south-central Pennsylvania, before killing himself.
• May 26, 2000: 13-year-old Nathaniel Brazill killed his English teacher on the last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla., after the teacher refused to let him talk with two girls in his classroom. He was convicted of second-degree murder and is serving a 28-year sentence.
• May 21, 1998: Two teenagers were killed and more than 20 people hurt when a teenage boy opened fire at a high school in Springfield, Ore., after killing his parents. Kip Kinkel, 17, was sentenced to nearly 112 years in prison.
• May 19, 1998: Three days before his graduation, an honor student opened fire at a high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing a classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend. Jacob Davis, 18, was sentenced to life in prison.
• March 24, 1998: Two boys, ages 11 and 13, fired on their Jonesboro, Ark., middle school from nearby woods, killing four girls and a teacher and wounding 10 others. Both boys were later convicted of murder and can be held until age 21.
• Dec. 1, 1997: Three students were killed and five wounded at a high school in West Paducah, Ky. Michael Carneal, then 14, later pleaded guilty but mentally ill to murder and is serving life in prison.
• Oct. 1, 1997: Sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham of Pearl, Miss., fatally shot two students and wounded seven others after stabbing his mother to death. He was sentenced the following year to three life sentences.
March 5, 2001: 15-year-old freshman opens fire with .22-calibre pistol at Santana High School in Santee, Calif., killing two students and injuring 13 others.
Jan. 10, 2001: 17-year-old gunman fires shots at Hueneme High School in Oxnard, Calif., before taking female student hostage. He is later shot and killed by police.
May 26, 2000: 13-year-old honours student shoots and kills teacher on last day of classes in Lake Worth, Fla.
April 20, 2000: Four students and one staff member wounded in knife attack at Cairine Wilson High School in Orleans, Ont. Occurs on first anniversary of Columbine massacre.
Feb. 29, 2000: Six-year-old boy shoots six-year-old girl to death in Grade 1 classroom at Buell Elementary School in Mount Morris Township, Mich. Because of his age, boy is not charged.
Dec. 6, 1999: 13-year-old student fires at least 15 shots at Fort Gibson Middle School in Fort Gibson, Okla., wounding four classmates.
Nov. 19, 1999: 12-year-old boy shoots 13-year-old girl in head at school in Deming, N.M. Girl dies next day.
May 20, 1999: 15-year-old boy opens fire at Heritage High School in Conyers, Ga., with .357-calibre Magnum and rifle, wounding six students.
April 28, 1999: 14-year-old boy shoots two students, one fatally, at W.R. Myers High School in Taber, Alta.
April 20, 1999: Two heavily armed teenagers rampage through Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo., killing 12 students and one teacher before committing suicide.
April 16, 1999: High school sophomore fires two shotgun blasts in school hallway in Notus, Idaho. No one injured.
Feb. 8, 1999: Man fires shot at Woodland Elementary School in Verdun, Que. No one injured.
May 21, 1998: 17-year-old boy kills parents, then goes to high school in Springfield, Ore., on shooting rampage, killing two teens and wounding more than 20 people.
May 19, 1998: 18-year-old honours student opens fire at high school in Fayetteville, Tenn., killing classmate who was dating his ex-girlfriend.
April 24, 1998: 15-year-old boy opens fire at eighth-grade dance in Edinboro, Pa., killing teacher.
March 24, 1998: Four girls and teacher shot to death and 10 people wounded during false fire alarm at middle school in Jonesboro, Ark., when two boys, 11 and 13, open fire from woods.
Dec. 1, 1997: Three students die and five wounded at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., after 14-year-old boy opens fire.
October 1997: 35-year-old man fatally shoots teacher at Montreal language school for immigrants.
Oct. 1, 1997: 16-year-old boy in Pearl, Miss., shoots two students to death and wounds seven others after stabbing his mother to death.
Feb. 19, 1997: 16-year-old boy takes shotgun and bag of shells to school in Bethel, Alaska, killing principal and student and wounding two others.
October 1994: Two guidance counsellors at Brockton High School in Toronto shot and wounded by student unhappy with grades.
June 1993: Teen wounded outside Gladstone Secondary School in Vancouver in drive-by shooting.
Aug. 24, 1992: Valery Fabrikant, professor at Concordia University in Montreal, goes on shooting rampage at school, killing four colleagues and wounding one.
February 1990: Jilted teenager shoots and wounds estranged girlfriend at General Brock High School in Burlington, Ont.
December 1989: Marc Lepine, 25, shoots dead 14 women at University of Montreal's Ecole polytechnique engineering school, then kills himself.
October 1978: 17-year-old student shoots 16-year-old to death at Sturgeon Creek Regional Secondary School in Winnipeg.
May 1975: Michael Slobodian, 16, kills teacher and student and wounds 13 others at Centennial Secondary School in Brampton, Ont., before turning gun on himself.
Forget what I said! Let's stay the course in Iraq and Afghanistan and send the Islamofascists to the dustbin of history.
Posted by: Darrell at October 03, 2006 08:58 PM (Kaq/d)
5
Before that US has attacked forty-five different countries since WW II.
So you get the message Darrell
Posted by: azmat hussain at October 04, 2006 05:42 AM (s1AoM)
6
And then you have that 2 amendment, the right to arm bears.
Posted by: azmat hussain at October 04, 2006 06:35 AM (s1AoM)
7
Are there bears in Indiana? I hope so.
45? List them.
Posted by: Darrell at October 04, 2006 08:27 AM (zwyjA)
8
Self-defense may be the most important human right. Oddly enough, if I had to choose I'd subordinate it only to the right to speak freely . . .
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2006 08:34 AM (LEEsJ)
9
azmat;
That 2nd amendment is what keeps the first amendment from going bye bye.
Posted by: Jack at October 04, 2006 04:47 PM (xD56d)
10
azmat;
And how many wars have Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Saudia Arabia and all of those other arab countries fought between each other since, oh say in the last 2000 years. Oh yeah, they never have stopped only had long cease fires while they re-arm.
You assumtions are heavily biased by your bias and hatred of America.
Posted by: Jack at October 04, 2006 04:51 PM (xD56d)
11
Jack and your answer to anyone who disagrees with you is that they hate America. If I hated it so much why would I contribute to making it better. You would rather keep it the same, because you are so cynical and arrogant, that you think it cannot be made better.
Yes I can see how Panama, Grenada, were a threat to the United States. And why out of fear and self defense the United States must strike at these countries. Also do not forget that your own president has accnowledged that Iraq was not a threat to the US. \"But that doesn\'t mean Sadam was not a bad guy\"
Someday, the second amendment will go bye bye, I tell you that day is not too far. The justification will be that we have terrorists in the US and we cannot give them the right to bear arms. Tell me ten years from now that you heard it from me first.
Posted by: azmat hussain at October 07, 2006 09:47 AM (h+X/7)
12
Azmat, how do you feel about the Second Amendment?
Posted by: Attila Girl at October 07, 2006 10:59 PM (LEEsJ)
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September 06, 2006
The Anchoress
cautions us about the supposed harmlessness of
forced conversions.
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I also think all this goes back to "what would you do if you were in their shoes." Would you choose your faith over your life or fake the conversion because you have such strong faith?
Posted by: Greta at September 07, 2006 06:22 PM (Cbtbf)
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August 31, 2006
The Reverend Kev
. . . is teaching once again, at a Christian high school. Quite a change from pastoring.
If this is your sort of thing, please pray that he helps to draw young people closer to God. If not, please send good vibes. Teaching is a very hard job, as my mother has been telling me since I was born—shortly after she was manipulated back into the august profession.
I happen to think it's the most important job, and one that should only be undertaken when there's a calling. Pastor K. has it, by the way.
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