Do you hang out only with people who are like you?

By age? Sexual orientation? Income bracket? Intelligence level? Political philosophy? Religion?

Similar levels of neurosis?

Tell all.

Posted by: Attila Girl at 01:31 PM | Comments (5) | Add Comment
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And, if you're in any one of those groups, how do you feel about Roman Catholics? Are some of them "saved"?

Remember, class: next week we'll be discussing Buddhism, so hit the books!

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1 You hold out a glimmer of hope for us poor Roman Catholics? How open-minded of you!

Posted by: Darrell at August 17, 2006 09:18 PM (mbGQ+)

2 I have to. I'm one myself. But among some of my, um, "Bible-thumping" relatives there persists the perception that Catholicism is, by definition, a cult. The doctrinal differences between Evangelicals and Roman Catholics seem, to my mind, to reduce in number all the time, but they are real enough for us to maintain separate communions. I still believe a lot of the differences are cultural, myself.

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 17, 2006 10:21 PM (10HYf)

3 I know how to spot a Rastafarian...

Posted by: Kevin at August 18, 2006 03:58 AM (++0ve)

4 I could see where the "snake handlers' could consider RCs a cult. I do remember what you said in the past. I just have a hard time deciding what the situation is today. ;-) And, oh, wear pants when you're around the snakes!

Posted by: Darrell at August 18, 2006 08:58 AM (9nwuO)

5 SHouldn't the question eb reversed? How do you think you can be saved by not being Catholic? :p Anyways, after 10 years of barely Catholic edducation aka Jesuit Education (which leads to another discussion on why I'm not a marxist now) I find that merely being Catholic does not warrant being saved, it requires the good works associated with it. However it seems to be more of a tendancy that merely believeing in Jesus is enought to be saved in other Christian Doctrines (Doctrines not cults) and the good works flow from that. So it leads one to think that the act of beleving in Jesus would be enough to save a Catholic in the eyes of Christians except for the eyes of the Catholic him/herself. Which brings us to Catholic guilt... As far as the Church's stance, I could be wrong here but I believe the Church has changed it stance on the "being saved" if one is not Catholic given some of the "minor" problems the Church had in the past.

Posted by: the Pirate at August 18, 2006 12:43 PM (tM0AO)

6 Have you ever met a Charismatic Roman Catholic? I have and they are super scary... really. I actually believe they are the reason I am now a recovering catholic...

Posted by: ethne at August 24, 2006 12:18 PM (F9l4e)

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Is there only one? Is the one you follow the correct one?

Does your faith call upon you to separate yourself from those who follow different paths, lest you endorse their principles? Is this wise?

If you are a Christian, how do you handle this difficult issue? On the one hand, the Lord hung out with sinners. On the other, hanging out with sinners can subject you to temptation.

If you're a Twelve-Stepper, how do you function in slippery places (e.g., bars, Grateful Dead concerts, pastry shops, gift stores—whatever)?

Posted by: Attila Girl at 12:45 PM | Comments (16) | Add Comment
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1 "in...but not of..." I know someone may pipe up and claim it doesn't actually say that. But in so many words, it does. It depends upon how you define fellowship. And that may be something each individual believer has to discern for him/herself. If you find yourself following after the way of the world, in violation of what you know or perceive to be your biblical/spiritual values, then it may be time to take stock and reasess how your relationships may be corrupting your walk. There are lots of spiritual paths. Not all go where they claim to, and they're not all the same in the end. Obviously one ought to be confident that the one followed is the correct one. But what one does after that is the difference. Me, I'm perfectly content to let someone go to hell-in-a-handbasket after I've made my requisite appeal to the Way. After all, I could be completely full of shit and my only afterlife will be spent in the alimentary tract of an earthworm. In the final analysis my trust in Jesus Christ as the only one capable of saving me out of death into life is not shaken by whether anyone around me has come to the same faith. I kinda like you all though, and I'd really hate any of you to suffer the fate prepared first and foremost for the Enemy. Although my basic misanthropy does tend to temper my enthusiasm for zealous proselytization. That and the fact that I have realized that it is not so much me doing/saying anything, as it is a work of the Holy Spirit. It's my job to remain sensitive to his movings and to move accordingly.

Posted by: Desert Cat at August 16, 2006 04:49 PM (B2X7i)

2 I always make sure I'm twelve steps from a Krispy Kreme.

Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at August 16, 2006 07:22 PM (RiZPJ)

3 Sean: you're an APOSTATE LUTHERAN! Repent! Lacking that, admit that you're POWERLESS OVER DOUGHNUTS! Or be prepared to be cast into the lake of fire. I'm serious, Bro . . .

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 17, 2006 12:35 AM (10HYf)

4 DC: I think you're a phenomenal witness for the Lord, partly because you're not wasting energy living up to other people's role expectations for what a Christian ought to be. I do happen to think you're right in something you mentioned a year ago: when the joint came round, Jesus would have taken a hit--at least at 70s potencies (the current stuff is stronger). He wouldn't have gotten wasted, but He would have been one with the sinners he ministered to, and participated (somewhat) in their customs. Without getting fucked up or using His Spidey powers.

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 17, 2006 12:38 AM (10HYf)

5 Not wanting to get too off-topic, but the potency thing is a red herring of the anti-drug hyperventilators. All that means is it takes far less to get where one wants to be, and also there's far less tar, CO and other crap to take in. Healthy choice! It's self regulating. Think of it like this: no one would drink three full cups of espresso like they would three cups of regular coffee. When you've had enough you stop. He drank wine. Not just a sip or two, but as much as the regular folk of his day did. A glass was part of any meal. And the Pharisees accused him of being a glutton and a drunkard. He was not, of course, but it serves to illustrate that he did not abstain, and that it was not "grape juice". He came to teach one thing, that all of God's will could be summed up in a single word: Love. Everything else, all the rules and regulations that the Pharisees had added to God's word, were peripheral and were distractions to the central message: "Love the Lord your God with all heart and soul and mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself." Everything else is the "how", not the "what". For example, it's not love to drink in front of a recovering alcoholic or to offer him some. "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable.", and one measure of that "profitable" is that if you love your neighbor as yourself, what you do in your own freedom that negatively impacts your neighbor, is not love. And since the sum of the law and the prophets is Love, in that circumstance it is therefore not lawful. In that same vein, appearing to condone that which is contrary to the love of God, might also apply as a lack of love to one's neighbor. Perhaps this is where I slip sometimes. Gotta run to work. L8r

Posted by: Desert Cat at August 17, 2006 07:23 AM (xdX36)

6 I'm sure, though, that the "appearing to condone"/"suspension of judgment" gives you awesome opportunities to witness to others.

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 17, 2006 12:03 PM (10HYf)

7 I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school thru college. Later became a self-proclaimed agnositc, then discovered Christian Science, and metaphysics in general. (No, I *don't* mean channeling dolphins or ETs.) From where I stand, it's about mind creating our environments thru multiple means - our choices to act being the most likely. That said, I've learned to look for *similarities* in faiths, not so much differences. If metaphysics (as ever so briefly described above) works, then one can 'judge a tree by its fruits'. It doesn't seem to matter what the nurturing faith might be.

Posted by: leelu at August 17, 2006 12:06 PM (KFuCy)

8 My faith doesn't so much separate me from other people don't things I don't approve of as much as my conscience and my fear of getting caught do. Few believe I've never touched an illegal drug. I have never been offered any either, not even in college. Sure, I went to plenty of college parties where it was happening, but I avoided the temptation and the potential for getting caught. Attila, did you temporarily take in the Martin Luther's spirit? You sounded like it. P.S. Put a dozen, warm original Krispy Kremes in front of me and I'm conquered.

Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at August 17, 2006 03:28 PM (RiZPJ)

9 Yeah--the girls tell me margaritas work, too . . . could be just a rumor, though. Sean, is there a distinction to be drawn between faith and conscience? Or is conscience socialized, and faith something one acquires later on? Re: Martin Luther--nope. He was anti-Semitic

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 17, 2006 05:19 PM (10HYf)

10 Rumor has it I can be conquered by margaritas too. Faith I'm sure influences conscience along with socialization and if your parents happen to beat you into acting properly. For me, I feared doing something that would make my mother tell me she was "disappointed in me."

Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at August 17, 2006 10:33 PM (RiZPJ)

11 Hm. Any feedback on your earring?

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 18, 2006 12:29 AM (10HYf)

12 Hanging out with sinners may involve temptation, but their is nothing inherently wrong with hanging with sinners only giving into the temptation.

Posted by: the Pirate at August 18, 2006 12:36 PM (tM0AO)

13 The earring appeared in sophomore year of college. I heard nothing negative from the parents. Now, if I had tried that in high school...

Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at August 18, 2006 11:41 PM (RiZPJ)

14 John: Pharisees and Fundamentalists feel differently, as I understand it.

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 19, 2006 12:12 AM (10HYf)

15 12 steppers aren't supposed to hang out in "slippery places." If you hang around the barber shop, sooner or later you are going to get a hair cut. I don't tell people what I believe because it usually upsets them. When I want to rattle someone's cage, I usually try to get them to explain why they believe what they believe. Having studied some philosophy in college - that included the Skeptics - it really isn't a fair fight.

Posted by: Zendo Deb at August 20, 2006 03:52 AM (+gqOq)

16 Actually, Z.D., there is a passage in the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous that discusses the notion of going to a bar, and states that it hinges on your motivations for being there: if there is a "legitimate social or business reason," then it's okay. But one has to know one's own mind. As a matter of fact, the Wharf Rats started as a group of sober people who liked to attend Grateful Dead concerts. It was all about, "how can I go there and listen to the music without it turning into a self-destructive thing?"

Posted by: Attila Girl at August 20, 2006 01:22 PM (10HYf)

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Essentially dark, or is there some hope?

Discuss.

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1 Black as the ooze at the bottom of a pond. Stinks about as bad too.

Posted by: Desert Cat at July 15, 2006 09:42 PM (xdX36)

2 The darkness shows off the light so well.

Posted by: Darrell at July 16, 2006 07:09 AM (xcUTd)

3 The optimist conservative said with joy and glee \"this is the best of all possible worlds,it doesn\'t get any better than this\" \"I know\" replied the pessimist liberal with a frown \"this sucks and it ain\'t gonna get any better only worse\"

Posted by: azzerism at July 16, 2006 07:49 AM (wuznC)

4 Basic nature is neutral; geared to survival. It's the how of that survival that veers into morality. IMHO believing that people are basically "good" is wrong, as it leads to an attempt to make excuses for bad behavior. Goodness is a learned trait.

Posted by: Darleen at July 16, 2006 09:54 AM (rvX7J)

5 Ah. You've been listening to Dennis Prager again

Posted by: Attila Girl at July 16, 2006 03:43 PM (4IuF2)

6 Dark as night, and the wind is howling. The candle is burning down and we are low on wood for the fire. The barbarians are outside, all around our little cave. And some of us inside the cave have barbarian tendencies as well. You preserve what you can and hand it on. Always a struggle. Always. And the good are not necessarily destined to win. But there is such a thing as good.

Posted by: cobalt blue at July 16, 2006 08:24 PM (quzVC)

7 Darkness dominates the picture. However, there appears to be various shades to this; not everyone one is a monster. I do wonder how much of this Nature can be overcome(is the monster lurking?). And although choices are a good indicator of character I also ponder, at times, the sincerity behind the decisions. Okay, I didn't swipe the candy from your hands but was it the result of intelligent reasoning? (I don't want to be sued); fear? (I don't want to be pounded by you or your husband); avoidance of guilt? (religious or otherwise); or some other self serving purpose? (hey, I'll just wait till you put the candy down and your back is turned). To know the true character of another, even someone dear, would seem to be too challenging and perhaps unnecessary if the darkness is kept at bay and glimpses of light can be perceived.

Posted by: Dalsan at July 17, 2006 08:24 PM (QvZn3)

8 Dalsan, are you talking about the unplumbed, salt, estranging sea by any chance?

Posted by: Attila Girl at July 17, 2006 09:47 PM (4IuF2)

9 No, that was not my intention, at least not wittingly, but there are some parallels with the sentiments expressed by Arnold. This unplumbed salt, estranging sea was viewed with despair, especially as its creation was bidden by God. The desire expressed is to have these islands become one and end the loneliness. I find it interesting that the wish was not for a particular island but for all islands. A community rather than a companion appeared to be favored. I suppose I am caught up in the second stanza of this work where it is still possible to appreciate those around us, albeit at a distance. To this amatuer, I feel the distance may be minimal (within our own home) or great (only being visible through some medium such as a computer screen). The words "And lovely notes, from shore to shore," may tease and delight the reader as they did the writer as they appear to cut, however little, into the darkness. Sorry to be wordy and not Wordsworthian, as Arnold described himself.

Posted by: Dalsan at July 18, 2006 09:13 PM (QvZn3)

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. . . from Little Miss Attila:

Get your zen koans right here!

A monk asked Kegon, "How does an enligthtened one return to the ordinary world?" Kegon replied, "A broken mirror never reflects again; fallen flowers never go back to the old branches."

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. . . on the Mt. Soledad Memorial Cross issue.

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I'd be interested in knowing how a judge can rule that the City of San Diego cannot give a monument to the Federal Government to manage.

And, of course, why the Feds are allowed to maintain memorial crosses, but cities and counties cannot allow crosses to appear anywhere that is officially sanctioned (even itty bitty ones on the Los Angeles County Seal).

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The idea of forcing the City of San Diego to tear down a cross that honors vets of the Korean War is just outrageous.

When you see a memorial cross do you think "I hope our leaders respect every drop of blood that's shed on our behalf"? Or do you think, "freedom isn't free"? Perhaps, instead, you think, "I guess the local government is attempting to endorse, sub rosa, a specific religion, violating the principle that separates church from state." If so, how freaking stupid are you? As stupid as Philip Paulson? That's pretty stupid.

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Can Gerard write.

I recommend his essay to the following people:

1) Christians;
2) non-Christians;
3) those who love their country;
4) those who are no longer sure their country is worth loving.

I do not agree with everything in it, but it is a classic Gerard prose poem. Go. Now.

Via Insty.

P.S. Re: the smartest apostle

I love him like Judas loved Jesus
Oh do not be surprised: his mad love for our Lord,
It makes one dizzy dizzy dizzy dizzy.

Judas was the true diver, plunging into the arms of God's fated Son,
Illustrating the drawbacks of homosexual love.

—Patti Smith [from memory for right now; later I'll see how I did]

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I wouldn't want to piss off the scientologists. Of course, I wouldn't want to piss off Matt Stone and Trey Parker, either.

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. . . who isn't a compulsive forwarder, but loved this, for what he calls "The Frozen Chosen." I hope that isn't me; I'll bet it is.

Hymns Of The Lukewarm Church: For God's Frozen People

The LukeWarm Church announces publication of "Church Songs," whose title, according to the editor, was selected because "we didn't want to turn anybody off with threatening words that no one understands anymore like 'worship' or 'hymn.' People in today's society get kind of uncomfortable with too much talk about things like commitment and dedication. They'd much rather have a religion that they can turn on or off at will. Our book seeks to meet that need."

Sample contents:

— A Comfy Mattress Is Our God
— Joyful, Joyful, We Kinda Like Thee
— Above Average is Thy Faithfulness
— Lord, Keep Us Loosely Connected to Your Word
— All Hail the Influence of Jesus' Name
— My Hope is Built on Nothing Much
— Amazing Grace, How Interesting the Sound
— My Faith Looks Around for Thee
— Be Thou My Hobby
— O God, Our Enabler in Ages Past
— Blest Be the Tie That Doesn't Cramp My Style
— Oh, for a Couple of Tongues to Sing
— He's Quite a Bit to Me
— Oh, How I Like Jesus
— I Lay My Inappropriate Behaviors on Jesus
— Pillow of Ages, Fluffed for Me
— I Surrender Some
— Praise God from Whom All Affirmations Flow
— I'm Fairly Certain That My Redeemer Lives
— Self-Esteem to the World! The Lord is Come
— Sit Up, Sit Up for Jesus
— Special, Special, Special
— Spirit of the Living God, Fall Somewhere Near Me
— Stick Nearby, It's Getting Dark Outside
— Take My Life and Let Me Be
— There is Scattered Cloudiness in My Soul Today
— There Shall be Sprinkles of Blessings
— What an Acquaintance We Have in Jesus
— When Peace, Like a Trickle. . .
— When the Saints Go Sneaking In
— Where He Leads Me, I Will Consider Following
— God of Taste, and God of Stories
— Lift Every Voice and Intellectualize

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Coming soon, to a warm, humid environment near you.

Hm. I think utopian communities are interesting, but I tend to have mixed emotions about those based on religious beliefs.

For some reason this particular project bothers me, probably because I think some of the best conversations going on right now are between the orthodox of various monothistic religions—in particular, within the various strains of Christianity (including Roman Catholicism) and between Christianity and Judaism. No interaction means no healthy exchange of ideas.

Via Laurence, who suggests that "more good than bad will come of it." I'm still ambivalent, of course. And, naturally, I would never live in such a place.

Posted by: Attila Girl at 10:27 PM | Comments (16) | Add Comment
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Would it be dangerous or unfaithful of me to go to a palm reader? I should think it would be okay, if one didn't take it any more seriously than one took, say, reading a horoscope.

Show of hands, please.

(Dear Mom:

Stand down. You're an athiest, remember? It oughtn't to matter at all what I do in this regard. Not that I'm defensive, although I'm aware that I've disappointed you deeply by not joining the Church of There Isn't Anything.

Please know that I respect the spiritual traditons of No, No God Anywhere, Nosirree Bob.

Have you heard the one about the First Unitarian Church of Kensington?)

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You'll recall that this is when God talks back to us after we pray. But in Jeff's case the Lord makes heavy use of the vernacular:

And I was all, “If You were any less subtle, frogs would be raining from the sky.”

And You were all, “I’ve got some here, just in case.”

Yeah. I know the feeling.

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Josh is carrying some of the same baggage around. But with, I think, a bit more panache.

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Bad idea? Good idea? Antinomian idea?

Discuss.

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a lot of theological arguments appear to come down to, "is/was Jesus a prig, or not?"

I suspect it's clear where I stand on this issue.

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. . . used to run a "Christian" cult in Los Angeles in the 1970s. It was a very odd phenomenon: a church whose doctrines aped those of classic mainstream Christian denominations—albeit with a sharp fundamentalist edge—yet operated for all intents and purposes like a cult. His "church" first called itself Maranatha Chapel, and then changed its name to Open Door Community Church, on the theory that this would give him and his "church elders" a quasi-mainstream aura. Later, I heard that he'd gone in the other direction, labelling his followers The Fundamentalist Army.

When I was in Hymers' cult it preyed on teenagers, and the lonely. His followers went door to door, flushing out those who might have any sort of emptiness in their lives, and offering human companionship at what probably looked like a real church. He rented houses and apartments under the church's name and let teenagers and twenty-somethings live in them dorm-style for very little in rent—paid weekly. It made it easy for these young people to leave their familes and practice the "total immersion" 24/7 approach to Church life that made it less likely that anyone—especially impressionable youths—would pull away. This brand of "Christianity" separated the individual from his or her work, family, studies, or other commitments. When I lived this life I was in a prayer meeting or Bible study every single night of the week. As the weekend began we had a large, rowdy prayer meeting on Friday night, followed by door-to-door prosylytizing on Saturday, and a marathon of services on Sunday: one on the Westside in the morning, one in Hollywood around noon, and one in Echo Park in the evening.

How did I pull away? you ask. I got mononucleosis. Without the indoctrination, I could see very clearly why this organization was an unsuitable place for me to spend my time and money at the age of 14.

Bob Hymers' preaching is a sort of Protestant pastiche; he loves to use stories about Martin Luther (though he never quotes the man's anti-Semitic rants, of course), the Wesleys, and John Calvin.

His style is simple, and that is deliberate: when his book UFOs and Bible Prophecy was published, he bragged to his congregation that it was written in the style of The National Enquirer. (I believe that was the first book, though he tossed off two or three of these glorified tracts in the two years I was in his "church.")

No matter the vocabulary he uses, that Bob Hymers egomania always shines through, as it does in this passage from the sermon linked above:

I realize that the Communist governments in China, Vietnam, and other places, filter out the message I preach on this website each Sunday in six languages. They say preaching like mine is dangerous to the Communist cause. And they are exactly right. Nothing is more dangerous to the security of an atheist state than the simple preaching of the gospel of Christ.

Note that the governments of China and Vietnam are not just blocking out Christianity: they are specifically blocking out Robert Leslie Hymers, because he is personally such a threat. I'm actually wondering how much Ronald Reagan or Pope John Paul II had to do with the dissolution of Communism in Eastern Europe: those advances were more likely achieved by a lunatic preaching fire-and-brimstone sermons in Southern California. A man with a little run-down crackpot web site. A man who operated a cult in what he cast as an effort to "take the L.A. Basin for Christ."

And his fun techniques for exploiting others have continued to the present day: there's the fact that when I was at UCLA, his group (by then called The Fundamentalist Army) would actually recruit during finals week, exploiting the emotional vulnerability of students during this stressful time.

There was his mid-80s appearance on The Wally George Show, including that moment when the two of them began laughing as old frauds do when the jig is finally up: whatever they were "debating" was cast aside, and it became clear that both of their lives were pure theatre.

And what watcher of dumbed-down quasi-religion can forget this incident many years later, in 2003?—

In Los Angeles, R.L. Hymers Jr., the pastor of the Fundamentalist Baptist Tabernacle called on his 400 member congregation in a prayer for the death of Supreme Court Justice William J. Brennen, Jr. because he supports a woman's right to have an abortion. He also ordered up an airplane to circle overhead trailing the message "Pray for Death: Baby-Killer Brennen."
"I think it may be that we're on the avant garde: we're doing something that others will do later," said pastor Hymers.

Bob Hymers' status as a former cult leader really doesn't show very much in his writing, or even his demeanor among some mainstream ministers: you must examine his actual methodology to understand his "contribution" to Christian culture. A cult is defined—to my way of thinking—not simply by its beliefs, but by actions such as going door-to-door in an effort to lure the lonely and disturbed into your flock; declaring that once someone has joined your particular church, they cannot be "saved" anywhere else; proclaiming that you alone can spot that special something that distinguishes the "saved'; by excommunicating people from your "church"(cult) and declaring that if they ever want to be "saved," they must go back through your own church—and no other.

You do it by maintaining a level of control over your followers' lives that would make Joseph Stalin take notes. (Yes: when I was in this group I was told how to dress.)

What I concluded from my experience with Hymers' cult is that when you evaluate someone's approach to faith, you mustn't simply listen to their words. You look at their deeds as well. Even a few years after I left the R.L. Hymers cult of the 1970s, I had a strange, narrow view of religion—one that would have appalled Jesus Christ. It did, in fact, appall Him when he saw a different version of it among the Jews of his day. Those that see religion as an external measure of a man. Those that proclaim their faith to the rooftops and yet are unable to show compassion toward a fellow human being.

This experience has left me with a deep distrust of those who speak fondly about "the Lord," or those who quote scripture excessively. I love my family members who share this brand of belief. I adore some other bloggers whose beliefs are passionate, and every bit as Biblical as any faux-fundamentalist's. Yet most of these people are clearly aware that the strongest witness anyone can make is through his or her actions—a fact that appears never to have crossed Dr. Hymers' mind. (If it did, he took two aspirin and went to bed early that night.)

Action lies in individual moments of faith and mercy and decency. In doing the work. And, very often, in having the courage to be happy.

What does this mean to me? Well. We are not all called to suffer. Some of us are called to show the power of God—and the power of love— by being a living witness to the world. Those who are called to suffer do it with grace.

And part of my witness, to the degree that I'm entitled to call myself Christian despite my doubts, my scientific upbringing, and my extreme vulgarity, is my ability to triumph over where I've come from.

If I can do this in a way that furthers my personal and spiritual growth, if I can continue to learn kindness and love for my fellow humans—and still slay the dragons in my own psyche where they crop up, I will have done my duty. Done it, I hope, with joy.

And the God I worship is the same God my Jewish friends worship (or at least, in most cases, have a nodding acquaintance with). My relationship with Him depends upon the fact that He likes to use broken vessels. And since parts of me lie around in tiny shards, I feel I qualify, all my doubts and neuroses notwithstanding.

God has shown an extraordinary loyalty to me, and as I get older I'll return the favor in a more and more consistent fashion. And I will pass it along to my children.

More on Robert Hymers' church, along with other "fringe" churches that appear to operate in a similarly cult-like fashion. And here is what a few of his followers have said, upon leaving. (And, yes: I knew some of these people personally from my stint in the "church" at ages 12 to 14. That was, um, months ago.)

Apparently, some of those who engage in theological squabbles with this person refer to him as "Hot Dog Hymers."

My fondest memory of a sermon by R.L. Hymers? That moment when he confused the words "fetid" and "fecal." Loudly. From the pulpit. I should have bought him a dictionary after that. Instead, I got mono and left.

For copy editors only: go here and play "count the typos"! How high can you count, by the way?

Have a snarky little New Year. And, uh—keep the faith.

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Which reminds me:

Oh, come on. Tell me you've never wondered. I stole that from Ilyka, BTW, who stole it from Zendo Deb.

And Ilyka has some further thoughts on the issue of "Intelligent Design" as Science. She doesn't appear to quite be sold on it.

(No. I have not entered the ID fray, and will not. I'm not convinced we need to tell schoolchildren how human life began at all. As long as they are quite clear that human beings did not share the earth with dinosaurs. And that evolution does occur. Teach evolution early on, and then throw a copy of Darwin's Black Box at 'em later on to see if they can write a decent paper on it.)

Posted by: Attila Girl at 01:32 AM | Comments (4) | Add Comment
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1 As some have pointed out, the debate about ID in schools exposes a serious weakness in the idea of public schooling. If everyone has to be taught the same thing, then everyone who cares will be fighting to make sure that their beliefs are getting taught. I haven't heard about private schools having this issue to deal with.

Posted by: John at December 30, 2005 11:08 PM (3sCAd)

2 Exactly!

Posted by: Attila Girl at December 31, 2005 12:17 AM (zZMVu)

3 School choice with vouchers. Bingo! Problem solved. Then let "evolution" sort out who gets the better education. If I had kids, they'd be homeschooled. No question about where to send them and what nonsense is being shoved down their throats. They would learn both, because as Vox says, "I don't know, and neither do you."

Posted by: Desert Cat at December 31, 2005 08:48 AM (xdX36)

4 That's it in a nutshell. Me, I lean toward creation through evolution.

Posted by: Attila Girl at December 31, 2005 09:15 AM (zZMVu)

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on how to reconcile my spirituality with my (nominal) Catholicism.

Or at least my half-assed Christianity.

So if you've got any book/website recommendations, lay 'em on me.

Posted by: Attila at 12:00 AM | Comments (39) | Add Comment
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1 Start with The Anchoress... Just take a look around. Before you leave, check out her bookshelf. By the way, I did give you a link...The sytem rejected it(questionable content).

Posted by: Darrell at October 04, 2005 07:00 AM (QDfEM)

2 If you haven't already done so, you really need to read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis. Every "half-assed" Christian should read this book. :-)

Posted by: Dan Sherman at October 04, 2005 07:29 AM (jniaR)

3 Here's a site... they have great literature. http://www.doesgodexist.org/

Posted by: Dan Sherman at October 04, 2005 07:33 AM (jniaR)

4 I frequent these blogs - http://www.evangelicaloutpost.com/ http://stonescryout.org/ http://bothworlds.typepad.com/both_worlds/ http://sheepcrib.blogspot.com/ http://eternalperspectives.com/ http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/

Posted by: Allen at October 04, 2005 10:27 AM (KJVaG)

5 Actually, I recommend gardening. It's not the same as reading in the classical sense, but really is similar once you get into it. You can even do it sitting down, just like you would with a book. If you're not a dab hand with plants, you don't even have to plant anything. Just sit out there and commune with what's already growing in your back yard. Kind of like hiking, but since you see it so often it gets far more personal. More intimate. Once you're well acquainted with it you feel all that life-force out there, in the plants and rocks and wind and trees and animals. Right? It talks to you. You understand its changes and growth, day to day. Jesus thought more about the relationship between spirituality and fishing, I think, but it's the same principle. God is love and life. The connection is seamless.

Posted by: k at October 04, 2005 10:28 AM (M7kiy)

6 Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" is one I would recommend. I've had a copy since the '70s. I go through it at least once a year. Keeps me solid in my Faith when I get a little iffy. Restores my human confidence in the Divine.

Posted by: benning at October 04, 2005 10:40 AM (1ril4)

7 No one seems to have asked you, but I was wondering what you mean by 'reconciling your spirituality' with your Christianity. That seems key to recommending reading, because it sounds like you have some specific things you are wrestling with... is this right?

Posted by: ilona at October 04, 2005 11:01 AM (/xupW)

8 Some of this might sound hard-core, but if you want to get out of a half-assed Catholicism into a whole-life Catholicism (not that it will necessarily "take over" your whole life - but it _certainly_ influences your whole life), here's what I suggest. 1) Go to confession. Do it once for your big sins since you've last gone, then pay attention to yourself over the month for the lessor ones, and go _again_, for the lessor ones you want to stamp out. Repeat as necessary - even for venial sins as you become 'done' with them. This is the best method to direct yourself more personally towards the universal call of holiness. It contains the greatest challenge to the way we have lived our lives and the greatest helps to living our new one. 2) Read St. Francis de Sales: "Introduction to the Devout Life". It's clear, humorous in places, well-reasoned, and completely applicable to our time. 3) Find your patron saint, read something by/about him or her. 4) When you receive communion, consider the following: 1) (I forget who said this) that the Angels themselves surround you at mass and themselves stand in awe at our great gift of Christ himself in the Eucharist, and 2) the Augustinian conception of the Eucharist: that when we eat normal bread, we are 'stronger' than it, we break it down, make it part of us, and then can use it for our will, but that the Eucharist is 'stronger' than we are, it breaks _us_ down, makes us part of the Body of Christ, and allows God use _us_ for his will. 5) Learn some of the path towards perfection with something like the 'Ladder of Divine Ascent' by St. John Climacus, 'Spiritual Combat' by Scupoli. Also, consider something mystical - Dark Night of the Soul, or something by (Pseudo-)Dionysius or Theres of Liseaux. 6) Check out the Catechism, it's actually really surprisingly good in parts. If you have a question, look it up. Also, the newadvent.org/cathens Catholic Encyclopedia is a must-reference for anything you want to know more about. 7) Consider setting aside time for either the Rosary, or the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours (I heard somewhere that the former is the latter designed for illiterates - but it does have its own simple benefits). I'm really enjoying the LotH - morning and evening take only 10-15 minutes to say silently (although I often say or sing it), and I'm learning to more deeply appreciate the readings. This will get you in tune with the ebbs and flows of the Church, and bring greater understanding. Keep the Friday penance - no meat or some other penetential practice. And, if you have become a penitent sinner, strike your breast three times during the confiteor. 9) After these things, if you have a mind to, take just a few hours a week and do some good works. Your parish might have some ideas - eucharistic minister to the sick, learning to lector well, helping the poor. That will more than get you started - I can safely say those things will change one's view of what life is and why, and allow one to more clearly perceive God's order in our world.

Posted by: jrp at October 04, 2005 12:10 PM (NGDkY)

9 I take it you are - like so many - upset that the Catholic Church refuses to change in ways you think it should. It took the RCC about 450 years to rescind the condemnation of Galileo for stating that the earth revolves around the sun. This is not an organization that is going to be in tune with America in the 21st century. Look elsewhere. People do change faith once they reach adulthood and can think for themselves. Not many will admit to it. As for spiritual understanding, get some of the recorded lectures by Joseph Campbell. Even the PBS special he did with Moyers is good - though since it was aimed a mass audience it is a bit thin.

Posted by: Zendo Deb at October 04, 2005 01:04 PM (S417T)

10 Read anything by James V. Schall (another sort of learning; Idylls and Rambles). Peter Kreeft (S o c r a t e s 101, A refutation of moral relativism, Everything you wanted to kow about God...) G. K. Chesterton (Orthodoxy and the Everlasting Man are essentials, but a bit hard to slog through - perhaps a Fr. Brown mystery, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assisi, or pretty much anything else). If you want to talk about any of these, let me know. They're full of good perspectives.

Posted by: Mark at October 04, 2005 01:08 PM (BRiJH)

11 C.S. Lewis - The Great Divorce. Robert Heinlein - Job: A Comedy of Justice I'm not sure if they'll make you a good Catholic or even a better Christian, but they'll make you look at traditional faith and spirituality in new ways.

Posted by: JohnL at October 04, 2005 02:19 PM (YVul2)

12 This is terrific! Keep it coming! I was born into a Metho--ist family. Brought up Unitarian. Convert to Roman Catholicism as of 1999. Still somewhat lost, not that there's anything wrong with that. Most of my service work is in my 12-step program, which is of course more free-form.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 02:37 PM (Kti1Q)

13 Echoing ilona's comment, that really hinges on where you are spiritually right now. Maybe I misse. it somewhere, but I .on't recall you going into any .etail on that important bit of information. (What's with your hyperagressive spam filter? It is picking on the fourth letter of the alphabet so severely that I can't seem to use it in any context!) .esert Cat

Posted by: .esert Cat at October 04, 2005 02:44 PM (Quk+4)

14 Why is MT so upset with the fourth letter in the alphabet? Why may I not use it in my own comments? Ugh.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 02:46 PM (Kti1Q)

15 Oops--crosse. posts. ;P Looks like I shall have to be .esert Cat from now on...

Posted by: .esert Cat at October 04, 2005 02:47 PM (Quk+4)

16 DC, I think it's been fixed. (And I'll find out in a moment, seeing as how there are lots of d's in this comment.) http://munuviana.mu.nu/archives/124251.php

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 03:57 PM (Kti1Q)

17 God Bless you for seeking more! I was once where you were, but thanks to JPJ and the year of the rosary followed by the year of the Eucharist (which ends this month), I am now "on fire." 1. Invoke the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary. She is the mother of God, and no one knows Jesus better than Mary. She will lead you, and in baby steps if necessary, to the fullness of Christ. Pray the rosary every day, in fact, this Friday is Our Lady of the Rosary and a First Friday. The month of October is the month of the rosary. Meditate on the mysteries, and know that “Hail Mary full of grace, were the first words of salvation. Mary was the first to receive the Eucharist, (Jesus in her womb), and is the new ark of the covenant. She is the spiritual mother of the world. She is the “woman” from Genesis to the foot of the cross, to revelations. Mary will lead you to Christ, and will NEVER fail you. 2. Confession, confession, confession. Oh, how sad how so few realize the true gift of confession. Pray to the Holy Spirit before going, and know that just as the priest is an "instrument" of Christ in the Mass, so too is he representing Jesus in the confession. The Holy Spirit works through him, and always know it is Jesus to whom you are confessing. Next to "Well done, my good and faithful servant, enter into the kingdom, the greatest words I will ever hear on earth are "Go in peace, all of your sins are forgiven." Also know that getting close to God demands humility. Confession fosters humility. 3. Humility and Prayer, Humility and prayer, humility and prayer. You will never know God without humility and prayer. 4. Once you have made a good confession, go to daily mass for at least a week and receive communion. If this is not possible, try at least to visit the Blessed Sacrament every day for a week, even it’s only for a few minutes. Make a firm commitment to avoid not only sin but the occasion of sin. Stay close to the Eucharist, and then get closer! 5. Make at least one holy hour during the week. JUST LISTEN, and feel the rays of God. This is the living Jesus, the one who promised us He would be with us until the end of the age. The demons and the nay sayers will tell you otherwise, but go read John 6. “Truly, truly, I say to you, this is MY body, this is MY blood.” BELIEVE (it’s true). If you have trouble believing in the real presence, know that many sadly have and still do. Even when Jesus announced it in John 6 (half of the Jews wiped out and left). He did NOT call them back to explain that it was “symbolic.” Know also that few even stayed with him in His flesh or were standing with him at the foot of the cross. To those who ran than and still do, I say, “Oh, what little faith.” THE EUCHARIST WILL BE/IS YOU GREATEST GIFT ON EARTH. It’s what the world lacks most. To be able to be with one with Jesus through the Eucharist is a gift beyond words. 6. Faith takes grace, and it is a great gift. We all have the grace for repentance, but grace must meet will. God will never deny any us our free will, up to our last dying breath. 7. BECAUSE OF CONFESSION AND THE EUCHARIST, you will now have the sanctifying grace that can only be gotten by the sacraments and in absence of mortal sin, a true treasure unique to the Catholic Faith. 8. If you do the above, have the will to grow deeper, pray, and receive the Eucharist in the absence of mortal sin, I PROMISE you, God will take you the rest of the way. It will no longer be the “old you”, but “Jesus who lives in YOU.” You will wake up one day and realize everything you didn’t want to “give up” or thought you could never “live without”, will now be the things you are “dying from.” The most beautiful part, you will find you have gained SO much more than you ever gave up. You will start to die from the world, sometimes to the point of it even being painful to bear. Your heart will yearn for more, and you will now enter into your true walk with Christ. 9. Pray to the Holy Sprit. Ask for the biggest gift of the Holy Sprit that God will grant you. If you reach this point, you will NEVER turn back. This is the “playground inside of those walls of “rules and regulations” G. K Chesterton talked about. You will have now earned your entry into the joyous playground, and it will be the most liberating day of your life. 10. With your heart on fire, you zeal and love for God will be insatiable. But I must tell you one critical thing. Before this can happen, you MUST, you MUST, totally surrender all to the teachings of the Catholic Church. The “cafeteria” is closed, period. UNTIL you accept all of the teachings, you will never enter (Do whatever HE tells you). To deny one, is to call God a liar. This is why humility is so important. It is simply our pride that keeps us thinking we “know better” than the Catechism of the Catholic Church. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got was from a catholic priest, who bluntly said, “If you don’t accept it, then you need to PRAY more.” Artificial birth control was the hardest for me. But, with the grace of God, I DID pray more, and I have no doubt it was Mother Mary who lead me to the teachings of John Paul II and the true understanding of the theology of the body. It was one of the most liberating days of my life, but then, the deeper I get in the faith; each day seems to liberate me more and more. 11. EWTN –Eternal Word Television Network. 12. I can’t praise EWTN enough. It was started by a cloistered nun, Mother Angelica (her autobiography is currently on the NYT best sellers’ list; HIGHLY recommend it). The Anchoress also has it on her bookshelf. M. Angelica is the REAL feminist, a true Catholic who 100% walks the walk. Many of us say we trust God, but M. Angelica took extreme risks, all with total trust in God. She continues to show us that with God, ALL things ARE possible. This month is 25 years for EWTN, a global network, seen in EVERY country in the world. You can also listen over the internet, and most of all, download audios and documents from the video library (ewtn.com). Everything on EWTN follows the true teaching of the Catholic Faith; interesting 30% of the audience is protestant. You will never be bored, and I can’t even tell you how much I have learned from EWTN. Father Goeschel does Sunday night live (VERY popular), Father John Corapi (another living saint in my opinion, ex Hollywood millionaire, drug addict, turned Catholic priest) teaches the CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Faith every Sunday night). Mark Grotti does Journey Home, a one hour show where converts come on and tell of their journey to the true faith, mass is shown 3 or 4 times a day (with total reverence I might add, no water downed stuff here), the rosary, divine mercy chaplet, etc. Bob and Penny do fascinating shows on the lives of the saints, Johnette teaches the perils of new age, theology of the body, and lots of good stuff, Life on the Rock has some really great young priests that have a round table geared more towards the youth, and the list goes on and on….There is even a show on Chesterton on Sunday evenings. Many of the shows have call ins. Mother Angelica’s shows (priceless) are all reruns, albeit timeless. She is too sick now (had a stroke and can no longer speak), but know that she is one of the best communicators of all time. She prepared nothing in advance, just led by scripture and the Holy Spirit. She is the nun we all should have been taught by. She is “truth with great love”; reminding us we are all called to be great saints, and teaches us all how to be a great saint. EWTN is truly a gift from God. It came about from His providence, and is maintained by His providence. There are no sponsors, just donors, and it’s now in its 25th year. It’s also on Satellite radio, some local stations (radio), and of course can be watched over the internet as well. 13. Last but not least, I would go to EWTN’s website and download Bishop Fulton Sheens, Life is worth living. If you ever wanted to learn Catholicism and understand all the things that “didn’t make sense”, Bishop Sheen was the biggest and best Catholic communicator of the 20th century. He was immensely popular when he had his TV show (even among atheists), and remains so today. He was indeed my mentor, and the first person to ever teach me REAL Catholicism. At least listen to his tape on the mass and the one of the Eucharist. Father John Corapi is also excellent, gifted with apostolic teaching, was ordained by Pope John Paul, and no doubt has one of the best conversion stories one will ever hear. The content is the same, the styles totally different. I recommend both, as well, some people relate to a certain teaching styles. Father Corapi supports his ministry by selling his tapes, etc., which is why I suspect they are not offered for free on the EWTN download, however you can listen for free on the Sunday night show. He is the only priest who has taken the CCC and put into CD’s. I have to say, it does make a difference to have it “further explained” by Father Corapi. On the other hand, Bishop Sheen’s were recorded from records he did in his study in NYC, without notes, BEFORE the CCC, I believe in the 1950’s. Hope this helps. I could write for days, but this is enough to get you started. Confession at least once a month (more if possible), frequent mass and communion, and at least one holy hour a week. If you do that, with a sincere heart, learn the catechism, read the scriptures (recommend the Navaree Bible), and pray, pray, pray, especially the rosary, stick close to Mother Mary, you will not only be on fire as a Catholic, you will have a taste of heaven on earth! God bless you, and always know, the whole answer to the meaning of life is the crucifix. Catholicism will not only take you to the depths of the meaning of that cross, that sacrifice, that redemption, creation and suffering, but will invite you to the process. When you get THAT, and realize we are “invited” to join in, you will be united to Christ in ways you could have never imagined. Even though the sacrifice of Christ was totally sufficient for our salvation, to leave this earth and never know how we could have shared in it, how we could have done so much more, is not something I want to think back on after 5 billion years of eternity, regardless of where I am at (by the grace of God hopefully I will be in Heaven). Only the Catholic Faith can offer you a fullness and an understanding (via the Eucharist), that will simply blow your mind. Beauty, richness, fullness, are yours for the asking. Never be discouraged by the heretics, only pray for them. Fulton Sheen used to say less than 100 people truly hate the Catholic faith, but millions and millions hate what they THINK is the Catholic faith. Trust me, if you hate it or even find it boring, you simply don’t know it. Jesus never promised holy PEOPLE, only a HOLY church, and it will prevail until the end of the age, always and forever protected by the Holy Spirit. Chesterton said that “If the Catholic Church is right, the whole world makes sense.” To be honest, I took the challenge, and to this day, despite heretic popes (none EVER changed doctrine), fallen priests, lay dissenters, and a media that hates Catholicism, no one, in fact, not even the bad Catholics, have been able to bring down the Catholic Church. It will end when that beautiful woman (our always loving Mother Mary) in Revelations with 12 stars over her head crushes satan, not a day before. And, we know who wins! And yes, we know who wins, but the battle for the salvation of souls and conversions will endure until the end. Know also that’s it’s more than “our soul alone.” By the power of the Eucharist, we can participate in the salvation of many many souls, and if that is the only reason you were born, well, that may just be enough! Whatever our state in life, what matters most is little things with great love. Always know that that greatest source of love is found in the Eucharist, in every Catholic church around the world. Thanks to John Paul II for the year of the Eucharist (October 2004-October 2005), the source and summit of the Catholic Faith.

Posted by: klaire at October 04, 2005 05:29 PM (xpPGy)

18 Heinlein's Job is remorselessly anti-Christian. He seems to have gotten the idea that you can only go to heaven if you die in a completely unadulterated state. He also speculated that people go to different "heavens" according to their personal beliefs, and that the Christian God is a practical joker with a bad attitude. That's certainly a different perspective on spirituality.

Posted by: Chris at October 04, 2005 05:41 PM (Eq31h)

19 If your battle between spirituality and Catholicism is anything like mine (between spirituality and Judaism), the result was simple. I scrapped the religion part. The dogmas that infest most, if not all, religions reduce them to nothing more than tools to be wielded by the Holy Interpreters (Priests, Rabbis, etc). If you want to have a spiritual moment you don't need a ritual or a holy place or a sacred chant or an idol or a Prophet. It's called Life. Live it, love it, believe it. Breathe it when you wake up. Feel it when you hug your spouse or kid. For anyone to tell you that you're missing out on something more is the real blasphemy.

Posted by: littlemrmahatma at October 04, 2005 05:58 PM (A8R6I)

20 I really appreciate the fact that everyone is avoiding any put-downs of each other. This is a deeply personal issue, and I'm listening to all sides, here. Every one of you has said something valuable.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 06:14 PM (Kti1Q)

21 I don't know that I can add much more to the above. If Catholicism is the direction you wish to head in, I'm not much help, except to note that behind every dogma, every liturgy, every "religious" practice there has to lie a fundamental living breathing spiritual reality, or the practice is essentially dead and useless. My own spirituality is very free-form, and while I can certainly see the value of form and tradition, it is not strictly necessary, at least not for me. And k has a point too, in that creation speaks of its Creator. And Gaia is (in my view) a very present and accessible part of creation. At the very least what she suggests can hone your spiritual senses for subsequent deeper experiences in realms beyond the earthly plane. Read everything you want, but read with as much awareness of the Holy Spirit's still small voice as you can muster. If something doesn't sound right, just set it aside for a while until you can approach it again later and see if it resonates, or if it still sounds wrong. Be aware however, that what sometimes makes something sound wrong is just our own desires and preconceptions coloring what we read. Therein lies the value of honing one's awareness of the Holy Spirit. Eventually it should become clear whether something has value for you or whether it is just leading you down a false path. Finally, it sure doesn't hurt to get down with the Scriptures themselves, starting in the Gospel of John if you haven't read them in a while.

Posted by: Desert Cat at October 04, 2005 06:49 PM (xdX36)

22 Ah. Yes. The birth control thing. One might hope that, at the very least, it has to do with contraceptives being used for that purpose, and not because the cramps are too painful, and the cycles too irregular. And pregnancy too statistically improbable.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 08:11 PM (Kti1Q)

23 I was also raised Methodist, and have since moved in a different direction. In my case, what I would call small "o" orthodoxy. A few books that have meant a lot to me: Anything by CS Lewis - especially his fiction Joshua by Joseph Girzone - Great story that presented a Jesus I would want to be friends with Soul Survivor by Philip Yancey - he's written lots of good books, but this one is a great roadmap to other authors that helped deepen/strengthen his faith in tough times.

Posted by: Professor Steve at October 04, 2005 08:25 PM (JqXzV)

24 Many wonderful suggestions from the Catholic contingency about prayer, Scripture & the Sacraments so far. I'll add to these: 1) Anything by Archbishop Fulton Sheen. 2) The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn - want to stand in awe at Holy Mass? Long to understand what it it is all about in very readable terms, citing Scripture? This is it. 3) A Father who Keeps His promises - also by Scott Hahn - Salvation History through the Scriptures. Wonderful job of keeping it simple, readable and thought provoking. 4) Any of the Saints books by Ann Ball. (Faces of Holiness, *especially* Young Faces of Holiness publ by OSV, Modern Saints Vols I & II publ by TAN books) These books of brief bios of Saints, blesseds, servants of God (with photos) always inspire me. Especially the Young Faces - All of the people in that book are very young (as young as 4!) and lived and died in holiness. Always pulls me out of my spiritual doldrums. Always. 5) Triumph - H. W. Crocker III -- a breathless, humorous, and never-a-dull- moment romp through Church history, making you stand in wonder that the gates of hell have never prevailed against the Church, despite the best efforts of bishops, popes and any number of kings and princes.

Posted by: shana at October 04, 2005 08:36 PM (vDLub)

25 I did order Theology for Beginners. I figured it was an obvious place to start.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 08:48 PM (Kti1Q)

26 We are all in agreement on one thing-you do need saving! :-)

Posted by: Darrell at October 04, 2005 08:59 PM (a0G9f)

27 I'm not bad; I'm just drawn that way I still feel like a foreigner WRT the RC Church. But the thing I love about it is the sense I have--this is something I learned from my husband years ago, when we were dating (I guess it's an old truism)--that Catholics are less likely to see human nature as perfectable, and more likely to understand us as broken creatures. I guess I see perfectionism as a hugely destructive force.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 04, 2005 11:08 PM (Kti1Q)

28 Have you tried actually reading the Bible? It's the best place to find out what Chrisrianity is - try one with a good commentary - the life application series has good on page commentary to help define and explain and hook new and old testament. Jesus is probably the best one to explain himself.

Posted by: Betsy at October 05, 2005 04:59 AM (HZN/a)

29 Try anything by Lee Strobel, too. His "Case for ..." books were written for seekers/skeptics. However, as a person with a deep faith already, I found that what he wrote helped to clarify things I knew. I'll be praying for you, too.

Posted by: Lis at October 05, 2005 05:56 AM (04CW0)

30 Thanks, everyone. I've read a lot of the Bible, but not too systematically. (And my relationship with Leviticus is a bit troubled: there seemst to be a lot of it.)

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 05, 2005 07:25 AM (Kti1Q)

31 With respect to your "I feel like a foreigner" comment...Let me let you in on a little secret, we all do--and should. That's if you mean "overwhelmed, and feeling ignorant." It's just that big. Of course you should strive to learn as much as possible about your Faith, but your most important relationship with God will be one-on-one. It's the simple prayers, in simple words and thoughts between you and God that matter most. All the rest is just there to assist you in your journey. He already loves you: He always has. He's given you a Soul that is a part of Him, but imbued with free-will. The rest is up to you.

Posted by: Darrell at October 05, 2005 08:54 AM (7yn+a)

32 I may have been wrong in assuming you are a Catholic. If you are not a baptized Catholic, you won't be able to follow a lot of my suggestions I posted yesterday. If you are Catholic, then I still stress, start with the confession and the Eucharist. How can you outdo Jesus substantially in you? The most important thing we all have/had to learn is that without grace, as mere humans, we are helpless (why didn't anyone TELL me I couldn't do this by myself!). That was my biggest Ahha moment. Until I started to live outside of mortal and deliberate sin FROM the grace of the sacraments of Reconcillation and Communion, I had no idea that "Jesus took over." It was truly the first time I realized how priests could live celebate lives (it would NOT be possible without the sacraments, we are simply too damaged by Origianal sin to try to even think we can do this on our own). I am not saying with sacraments sin is impossible, but I am saying, deliberate sin and Mortal sin is a lot harder, simply because Jesus is too close to you to dare offend, and the love is simply too great. Despite the temptations, we are ALWAYS, when in grace, given enough to "avoid" the sin. Most of the sins daily/weekly communicants commit are sins of ommission, or as Father Goeschel talks about, "stupid sins." At the end of any day, all of us could have done a little better, had a little more patience, done another act of kindness, etc. Even PJP went to confession every 3 days, but I HIGHLY doubt that he ever was guitly of deliberate or motal sin. If you are not a Catholic, then I still say go to ewtn.com or better, watch it on TV. Pray to the Holy Spirit and turn on EWTN (it's on 24/7-no commericals). This is truly the Lord's station, and even though it is Catholic based, we are ALL Christians and embrace what we share, and respect what we don't. I promise you EWTN is very intune with the non Catholic audience, which is why 30% of the audience are NOT Catholics. EWTN is a VERY good place to start. I have no doubt if you spend even a few evenings watching it, you will be inspired by someone or some teaching. Know that I will be praying for you! Always know that EVERYTHING comes from God, everything!

Posted by: klaire at October 05, 2005 09:19 AM (xpPGy)

33 I read a book called The Purpose Driven Life. Sorted things out for me nicely, by allowing me to explore and question contextually. This means you become your own trusted partner because you answer your own questions. My only caution is to not buy the book from their website. The fulfillment process they use sucks. Let me know if you find it helpful.

Posted by: Joel (No Pundit Intended) at October 05, 2005 11:50 AM (bZ1qg)

34 I gotta agree with those who urge you to seek the sacraments, especially confession and the eucharist. You might give regular eucharistic adoration a try; I do an hour a week (middle of the night is the time I can regularly get away; it's great being alone with the Eucharistic Lord in prayer like that). Then read Scott Hahn, "The Lamb's Supper", and his book on confession (don't recall the title offhand). Read Hillaire Belloc for a Catholic view of history, and Chesterton (esp. "Orthodoxy"). "Catholicism & Fundamentalism", I forget the author; Kreeft, maybe? Hey, read my blog! "Theology for Beginners" is good, but I found it a bit hard to get through. Mark Shea's "By What Authority?" is excellent on where the bible comes from, and why we should believe it.

Posted by: Paul at October 05, 2005 02:02 PM (So1/b)

35 Why do you want to get back into the religious mess? Look at the recommendations above: worship him, no her. Take sacraments, blah, blah, blah. A quick trip down memory lane for you. This was about...ummmm...27 years ago. We were walking around Venice or Santa Monica when we ran into some of your old friends from the Church you used to belong to. Do you remember them asking you if were were going to return to the Church? You said it wasn't likely. Do you remember the look of pity they gave you, like you were no longer worthy of contact, that - by God - you weren't going to be saved? You were embarrased and I was a bit upset that they should judge you such. Do you want to get back into that again? Already, one person above has judged that you need to be saved. Do you really want to wrestle again with the dogma can of worms*? You don't need it (organized religion with all the trimmings). You are perfectly spiritual and fine they way you are. If there is an almighty God that IS and is ALL then prayers and rituals won't mean very much. But a spiritual appreciation that comes naturally every moment is sure to mean more. Again, I urge you avoid the Route of the Dogma and avoid the inevitable shit left by the Dogma. Simply, enjoy your life with every breathe - nothing more needed. But, if you must persist in persuing the Dogma, I highly recommend any of the books by Bishop Spong. Since they tend to repeat themselves pick up a later one. As always yours, LMM * Can of worms: Why should she bother with Catholicism, Islam, or Christianity (et al) when the Torah clearly and repeatedly states that Judaism is the ONLY way to get close to God? A religion like Christianity can not self-declare itself legitimate. Neither Jesus nor his followers can declare Jesus as Son of God because GOD did not say so and thus it is valid. Worse, it goes against a few of the Commandments. Jesus was, at best, a prophet and serves to detract from God. Any religion that places a human being - prophet or otherwise - ahead of God is illegitimate. But the real kicker: Judaism is itself invalid because God didn't reveal himself to everyone, only to a few...theoretically. Sorry folks, without incredible proof, this whole religion and God stuff ain't worth the paper and parchments they're printed on. If there is a God (and the grand unification theory of Physics may be it) it certainly isn't necessary to worship it. Why not worship gravity or magnetism? Yes, we ARE and that's just incredible and wonderful. Now can we stop fighting and killing each other over whose God is more powerful, whose dogma has more credence, and simply make this world of ours nicer, safer, cleaner. Wouldn't God be more impressed that way?

Posted by: littlemrmahatma at October 06, 2005 11:19 AM (CJ9rK)

36 I guess LMM can't recognize "humor" when he(from the Mr.--or she or it) sees it.(In reference to my comment that they only thing we all agree on is that you need saving! :-)) Even when it has a little smiley face following it :-)... Speaks volumes, doesn't it? What else has this person missed?

Posted by: Darrell at October 06, 2005 09:34 PM (mHiqm)

37 No, no, no, Darrell--he's not speaking to your comment. He's just afraid I'll go all religious and become boring. He's within his rights to be concerned. It's fine. LMM also keeps the milk and meat separate in his house, so I believe he may be aware that there are compromises we all make in terms of how our spiritual practices dovetail with those of our spouses. If I weren't married to Attila the Hub, I'd likely be going in a different direction. But that's fine: there are many paths to the top of the moutain.

Posted by: Attila Girl at October 06, 2005 11:21 PM (Kti1Q)

38 You boring? Never! You'll find your way.

Posted by: Darrell at October 07, 2005 08:42 AM (unx3B)

39 Attila: Where do you believe that God is directing you now? Is there a particular area that seems he is leading?

Posted by: SteveL at October 11, 2005 09:16 PM (DpYI4)

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