. . . from a former Navy Intel officer, now living in the Upper Midwest. This is my cousin, who gathered intelligence during the Vietnam War. He has a thing or two to say about the Abu Ghraib scandal.

I am not sure I agree with what they did, and I don't know if I condone it, but having been in the service during a war, I certainly understand it.

I cannot honestly say I feel bad for those prisoners. Having been in the field and collecting intelligence, I can tell you we miss out on a lot of good intel by interrogating as we do. I consider myself a civilized person, but a very rational part of my mind refutes the cries of the liberal do gooders (and many honestly good people) in thinking that when you fight people who follow no rules, you must win by following the rules.

I do not really believe that we stoop to the level of the terrorists when we employ their tactics. It matters not the size of our forces: the bad guys will eventually wear down the morale of the good guys by decrying their use of tactics the terrorists themselves use. With the press bombarding the public with negatives, it is an uphill battle to win against someone fighting with no rules, when you yourself are bound by civilized actions.

My biggest fear is that the press will scare honest Americans into self-destructing with all the negativity. Also my biggest dilemma is how far do we go into the rules (or non-rules) of the terrorists. A truly sticky problem here. According to some rules of war, it was a crime. More realistically, it was a horrible lapse in judgement by a bunch of young people in a situation most Americans won't experience even in their worst nightmares. In addition, the brass will engage in a full-court cover your ass (liberally stuffed with bullshit), and those few will suffer the brunt. Six ruined careers and probably six ruined families.

For what it's worth, it looks like some of the shit that getting thrown around is, in fact, landing on officers. And while we may never settle the issue of responsibility (that is, Army Intel vs. CIA vs. the MPs) in a totally satisfactory way, the rest of the world is seeing the U.S. reacting to this, including Congressional hearings. The Arab world saw the President of the United States offer an apology. Much as that action may defy logic in some bloggers' minds, it made a big impression on many observers, a few of whom asked, "hey--how come our leaders never say they're sorry?"

It's a good question, and one for which even Al-Jazeera doesn't seem to have a real answer.

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Donald Sensing on why people--people like me, I think he means--need to stop making excuses for the guards who abused Iraqi prisoners. And/or stop comparing these crimes to those that occurred under Saddam.

The absolutist point of view (this is always wrong, we cannot ever condone it or even accept it) appears to be the dominant view among the Milbloggers, as it runs counter to their training (which is damned gratifying). I'm just not sure it encompasses all the truth.

For more, see Sensing's comments thread, in which some people explain why torture may be justified under some circumstances. Not fun reading, but important, I think. The best comment was from someone named Yehudit (whose home page is here):

I also agree with Donald that torture should never be officially sanctioned. This may have been in the Atlantic article: they interviewed an Israeli human rights worker who said that in her experience, if any torture is allowed (even by special warrant) it always grows into gratuitous abuse, it is never restrained to the specific case. She said you have to make it illegal, knowing it will go on anyway, but make sure the interrogators know they will face heavy punishment if they are caught. If they are convinced it is necessary anyway, if they are willing to take that risk, then they will go ahead, but they will be much less likely to use it gratuitously.

I don't happen to think this applies to the current situation, in which the guards were apparently trying to keep the Iraqis awake, and either went over the line or were ordered over the line (I want to see the evidence presented at trial) but it's probably the best balance between letting thousands die for our principles in a ticking time-bomb scenario vs. becoming the thing we are supposedly fighting against.

Hat tip: James, who doubtless disagrees with me heartily on this score. (I may stop actually writing and just link to Outside the Beltway from now on; it would certainly save time. Or I could re-title my blog the OTB Amplification Page.)

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James discusses the standards for training of MPs, and how these are going up: there will be more specialized training for military prison guards than there have been in the past. But he points out that every soldier is instructed in such basics as the Geneva Convention and general standards for treatment of prisoners, and those who are MPs are given a special course in this as well. James has insisted all along that there is no way the soldiers involved did not know they were acting outside accepted guidelines.

(Non-military people: no matter the branch of service an MP [Military Police member] is in, he or she always gets the MP training through the Army. For instance, my husband is a former Marine, but he received his MP training at an Army base.)

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Via Blackfive, the Navy Cross was just awarded to Marine Captain Brian Chontosh for his heroic actions during the drive to Baghdad last spring. He was in charge of a string of vehicles that was suddenly ambused. Under heavy enemy fire, he ordered the Humvee he was in straight toward the enemy position, and jumped out firing. When he ran out of ammo he switched to his sidearm; when his sidearm ran out he used AKs seized from the dead Iraqis. He killed 20 and probably wounded as many. And he saved the lives of his fellow Marines.

Blackfive's commenters inform us that "it's 'OOH-rah,'" contrary to the way the news stories about Chontosh have the Marine saying. Nice to know; I hate to wake my husband up for little questions like that.

OOH-rah, indeed. And Semper Fi. This guy is the real deal.

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There's a great discussion going on at Outside the Beltway regarding Donald Rumsfeld, and whether or not he'll be asked to resign from the administration. Novak thinks so, and is quoted taking the temperature of the Army (in particular). James makes the point that only someone like Rumsfeld--who doesn't care whether or not people like him--could achieve what he has in such a short amount of time, in terms of transforming the military into the lean machine it (almost) is now. more...

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