1 "Hi there, are you a homo junkie crackhead? No? Good, here's your bottle & a copy of Skank, take booth 3..."

2 It's worse! It's more like, "are you a homo?--No, just a junkie? Fine."

3 Why must closeted gay men be self-hating? Isn't being closeted just as acceptable of a choice as any other life style which you refuse to condemn? Why are only outed in-your-face gays worthy of admiration? I sense a double-standard...without even getting to the scientific reasoning for the FDA decision.

4 Ah. But if I'd meant that all closeted gay men hated themselves, it would have been redundant to specify "self-hating." I didn't--they are separate modifiers: self-hating + closeted. In fact, I do think it's acceptable for people who move in certain circles to keep their orientations to themselves. It's a personal choice, whether one is "out" or not, and I wouldn't presume to advise anyone on the issue.

5 You still qualify the choice to remain closeted as acceptable only under your approved circumstances of "people who move in certain circles." Who are you to criticize the life-style choice of those who remain closeted but don't move in your closet-approved circles? And because you can't read my tone of voice, let me make it clear that I actually agree with your right to make such criticisms and not be labeled a hater or a bigot...just as I reserve the right to be critical and to withhold my approval of the life-style choices of the larger group.

6 Well, if someone moves in an urban-bohemian circle wherein being gay is generally a neutral value (or something that would garner approval) staying closeted would be rather a queer choice, don't you think? And now you're discussing "life-style choices" in a way that makes me believe you think gayness itself is chosen. And that's a dicey thing to say. Certainly there are a few people who are making choices all around (particularly people like me, who are fundamentally bisexual). But most gay people--and the overwhelming majority of gay men--are hard-wired to prefer their own gender. This means that it's possible to put on a charade and have a heterosexual relationship, but virtually impossible to fall in love with someone of the opposite sex. Those who talk glibly of "choice" are often people who would condemn gays to a loveless life of pretending to be someone they aren't. I certainly hope you aren't one of them.

7 Don is correct, 'self-loathing' is the standard ad hominem used in identity politics for designated minorities who don't toe the line. Since everyone is to some extent self-loathing, it's a meaningless statement. I know very out homos whose drug use & indiscriminate sex would suggest a strong component of self-loathing. And if Al Sharpton isn't self-loathing, why does he straighten his hair?

8 Hm. I got it from a Jewish friend of mine, who periodically remarks, "you think I'm a self-hating Jew, don't you?" I always say "no," though of course like everyone else he has his demons. It's just that in his case the demons don't appear to be related to being a "member of the tribe." I was just amused at the idea of the FDA comprising a bunch of closet cases . . .

9 Without regard to how one becomes gay, once gay, the way such person lives their life is entirely a choice. I condemn the way some homosexuals live their lives and I accept the way others live theirs. And, you do too as you just admitted. You are not hateful or bigoted and I want the characterization applied to me. As to condemning people to a loveless life of pretending to be someone they aren't, you've hit on one of my pet causes. Given the ability I would condemn a great percentage of the population to such a life for the betterment of society. I'm primarily talking about marriage. You get married, you stay married barring criminal behavior by a spouse. Think of the benefit to children, the reduction of poverty and crime and every other measurable malady, and eventually people realizing that they should never get divorced would actually put some thought into getting married which, in turn, would reduce the number in such forced loveless marriages. So, the "horror" of living a loveless lie carries no argumentative weight to me. Life is not about the endless pursuit of pleasure. There are much higher ideals to aspire to.

10 If I'm reading you correctly you're saying that promiscuity is bad, but it's okay to simply be a normal gay guy in a committed, monogamous relationship (which, BTW, the majority of my gay male friends are [though I think my sample could be skewed; I'm not saying that about all gay men, 'cause I know there's a lot of promiscuity out there]). You don't have problems with homosexuals, but only those who are "in-your-face" or who sleep around a lot. Fair enough. I don't really understand promiscuity in those over 30, anyway. And you'd like marriage to be for life. I'd like that too, of course, but I know that when my husband and I went through a rough patch a few years ago, it meant more to me to work it out with a choice in the matter: had the state forced me to stay, I might have stayed--hating him AND the government. I'm here voluntarily, so it's a lot more meaningful.

11 Sounds like were playing the same game and maybe even in the same ball park. I am extremely close to a couple of homosexuals...the topic however has never come up. I know such is more extreme than you and most would have it be, but I maintain that it is the ideal. I'm here voluntarily too, but with the knowledge that whatever happens the bid D ain't an option. It may sound contradictory but I don't think it is.

12 My friendships with gay people now are very different than the friendships I had with gays when I was young: back then we talked about sexuality (gay, straight, whatever) a lot. Now it just doesn't come up. If I'm wondering how to approach my husband about a particular topic my friend B. might discuss how he deals with similar issues WRT his partner (B. and I are in a spiritual group together, and he plays a mentoring role for me, so this is appropriate behavior rather than gossip). Another friend is female and clearly gay, but neither one of us has ever used the "l" word; it's just not the point of our friendship at all. We don't shy away from the topic, but we have plenty of other things we need to discuss. I do marketing work for her remodeling business, and I honestly couldn't tell you which of the women who work for her are gay: I don't need to know that in order to work on their brochures and business cards. You get to a point in your life wherein it's a lot less important to throw labels around than to build your own relationships, earn a living, and basically get on with life.