August 18, 2007
Hangin' with the Twelve-Step Crowd . . .
So, after the meeting I'm putting something away and I overhear this priceless tidbit:
A: "I can't believe we gave that project such a good sendoff."
B: "But—Holy Crap!—what a lot of work. I told Ms. Subcomittee Chair that after that many months of us busting our butts, she owes me either a dry martini, or one really big joint."
A: "Get her to cough up both. I'll meet you two at your place next Friday; you take the joint, and I'll have the martini. With a little luck, she can pay it all off in one night."
They say that if you really want to get to know yourself, you should work in a nonprofit for a while . . .
As for me, I think I wasted my time on the wrong subcommittee.
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August 05, 2007
Well, I'm Here.
I'm in San Diego, where the people are nice but the internet connections can be spotty.
Having a great time nerd-watching, socializing, and (let's be honest) reading the last Harry Potter book.
This, of course, is all exhausting. There's little time to blog.
Furthermore, one cannot write brilliant entries from the lobby of a Holiday Inn—I saw that written down somewhere, but I've forgotten where.
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It's not where you post from, it's what you post about.
(This aphorism brought to you by Aphorisms Is We, a wholely disowned subsidiary of Aphorisms Unanimous.)
Posted by: Alan Kellogg at August 07, 2007 03:03 AM (5YaDJ)
2
Located in a Holiday Inn near you. . .
Posted by: Darrell at August 07, 2007 08:14 AM (MlTSR)
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August 02, 2007
"You Know," My Father Announces, "I've Never Balanced a Checkbook in my Life."
"Yes," I respond. "When I got my first account and asked you how to keep it straight, you replied that the secret was to have two accounts, and use them alternately.
But I never had trouble with the 'running balance' thing. It was trying to reconcile them against the statements that always made me crazy."
"I can't even spell 'reconcile,'" my father replies.
This is the same guy who criticized me in college for not taking enough courses in "the natural sciences." (I used to wonder what unnatural sciences would be, but I never bothered to ask.)
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I stopped balancing my checkbook a long time ago, too. Stopped using checks much, as well--too much hassle. Nowadays they're only for on-line bill payment with a deposit to handle the total made immediately beforehand. For most of the month there's nothing to steal if a hacker ever gets hold of a number/password. Credit cards are used for most purchases instead of checks. It's safer and I've found the credit card companies are usually on my side in a dispute.
Posted by: Darrell at August 02, 2007 07:50 PM (1qZqZ)
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Like lonelygirl15 Attila is becoming a reality show. What happened to 2008 election? Do you no longer get any funding from the religious right?
And how come Darrell has toned down his hatred for the muslim world? I can just see the future: Attila will be posting videos of herself doing her daily chores, and Darrell will be shown wearing a turbun and admitting that he has converted to Islam.
Posted by: Azmat Hussain at August 02, 2007 10:34 PM (mdszq)
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Vows of silence are not what they used to be, eh Azmat?
The good fight--the war against the Left and all agents of terrorism and anti-Americanism continues unabated. Untie my hands and let me see your knife for a second and I'll show you how a Chicagoan dies.
Posted by: Darrell at August 03, 2007 09:45 AM (YZV6V)
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Nice of you to stop in, Az.
Posted by: Attila Girl at August 03, 2007 12:11 PM (VgDLl)
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the unnatural sciences are the faith based ones
Posted by: John Ryan at August 03, 2007 12:15 PM (TcoRJ)
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From the vast amount of evidence before my, the UN-NATURAL sciences are taught at U.C. Berkely
Posted by: RWB at August 03, 2007 12:25 PM (4j8Ry)
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Well, Az, just step over here and let me tighten up the ol' buckle on that straight jacket. THEN you can take the little pills in the papercup that make it all better.....
Posted by: RWB at August 03, 2007 12:36 PM (4j8Ry)
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What is up with the fiorcet stuff? Robots or idiots?
Posted by: RWB at August 05, 2007 01:57 PM (4j8Ry)
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July 27, 2007
Last Night . . .
I dreamt that as a sort of surprise, my husband had decided to create another funny little indie movie.
The problem was, I could not decide whether or not I was dreaming, and I did feel that if it were the real thing, I ought to be on my best behavior. After all, his friends were around—and one was never certain when the cameras were rolling.
Certainly there were things that appeared dreamlike about the experience, but I just wasn't certain. I kept trying to reason it out, though I believe I was aware that one's analytical abilities are never quite up to snuff in these situations.
But I tried. For instance, I looked at my watch, and was able to determine that we had been shooting all day. Dreams, I knew, are over very quickly, so that seemed to argue for it being real. Also, who thinks to check their watch in a dream? It had to be real, which was a shame, because I was having a good time, and there were all kinds of things I could have done (besides taking a bath, on-camera, with people coming in and talking to me as part of the setup) that I could have done, had I known for sure.
I was a tad skeptical about the trip to Ireland, because I rather doubted we could afford that right now, but who knows? It hardly seemed like a deal-breaker: perhaps A the H had made a calculated risk, and felt that the income from the film would make it worth the investment. After all, there's a lot of free publicity available in The Age of YouTube. Also, the fact that we were going to the Emerald Isle cut in the other direction: if this were my brainchild to begin with, it would have been England.
Above all, the whole thing was terribly funny, and my dreams never feature humor. So it seemed authentic.
I tried to smile a lot, be pleasant, do something funny when it was my turn, and take it easy on the gin. (Gin was available in those fountains one gets Coca-Cola from in fast-food joints. In retrospect, this strikes me as a bit suspicious, but it felt natural enough at the time.)
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July 19, 2007
It's Always So Interesting
. . . when Hell Week in my volunteer life corresponds with paid assignments from my clients. Because I'm not in a position to turn down paying jobs, but of course I can't let my brethren down in the nonprofit.
So sleep is sometimes the first thing to go.
Thank goodness my mother is starting to feel capable of taking on little tasks around the house: I'll stay there tomorrow night, but I'm not going to be much good around the house. I'll probably arrive late, and then leave early Saturday morning for double-meeting day.
Please remember the take-home lessons, here: 1) don't have mothers; their backs may give out on them at some point. If this approach to life is unwieldy, then 2) don't have volunteer commitments. You'll just end up working your butt off, and people will be there to "helpfully" tell you how you could have done everything so much better.
Stick with clients. We like clients, because we send them these things called "invoices," and then later on they give us "checks," which make life better.
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July 16, 2007
I Remain Alive.
But just barely. It isn't just maintaining a household along with 2-3 jobs. It's also this business with my mother.
One doesn't just go over and fetch her mail and do her shopping. One also hears sort of a lot of, um, verbalizing. It's more or less nonstop, except when she's in so much pain she can't speak, which is even more stressful, though in a different way.
In between muscle spasms, though, there's this wall of advice. And anecdotes. And specific directions on how to do the things I'm doing for her. And helpful guidance when I'm doing it incorrectly. And admonitions that I shouldn't do more than is absolutely necessary. And polite requests to do one more teensy little thing, please.
I was all set to come home and eat my gun, but it turns out my check showed up from the premier client today, so I'll leave the firearms alone and read myself to sleep instead. Because what's more full of good cheer than money?
At some point, however, I do plan to once more become an Actual Blogger. I (almost) promise.
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July 15, 2007
Where Would One Even Start?
My mother still needs lots of help, so I'll have to stop over there tomorrow and at least walk the dog.
Federal Express and/or our landlords messed up a shipment, so there's nothing to sell in my nonprofit/retail/office management job. And the Treasurer there is creating various pressures that I don't think I need.
My cousins were nice about staying here in Paper City, but one always feels icky about having been a poor hostess. They're young, though: they might not have noticed.
Someone damaged my car very slightly yesterday, and I went off on him. Very thoroughly. I know this person, so I probably owe him an amends, but . . . it can probably wait a bit. It was my car.
I remain imperfect.
There's a lot to be said for food and sleep.
I've decided that I should probably balance my checking account and work on my budget about as often as I do laundry—which means almost every day. Therefore, having just performed this grisly task, I am now aware that (my clients being late with my payments), I have $70 to get through next week with.
So: who votes for food? And who thinks it should be gasoline?
But I have plenty of leftovers in the fridge, and two billable assignments to get through the week. And for my birthday the husband got me books and copper pearl earrings.
I got myself two Ellery Queen mysteries and a John Coltrane album. All in all, quite a good haul.
So, you know: nothing to complain about, really.
I've decided that I deserve an iTunes binge. And—possibly a little gin.
I need external speakers for my Mac notebook, though. (I have ex-boyfriend who used to maintain that I blur the want/need distinction. This is not correct: I simply do not admit that it exists whatsoever.)
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I vote for gas. Use it to drive down here to boxville and I'll cook. :-)
Posted by: caltechgirl at July 16, 2007 09:04 AM (qPLLC)
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Maybe you can express yourself to that Treasurer you referred to. What would s/he say with respect to causing you pressure?
Posted by: Richard_Manitoba at July 16, 2007 10:27 AM (9l5za)
3
Check out this video of a purple Teletubby and Moses getting arrested at the Capitol in this demonstration about the Homosexual Agenda. Go to http://publicadvocateusa.org/ or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUBj51aLV1A
This shows Public Advocate demonstrating in Washington, DC, protesting the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Protection Act (H.R. 1592), which would grant special rights to homosexuals. This law would add sexual orientation to federal hate crimes statutes.
Posted by: Freedom Advocate at July 16, 2007 10:46 AM (VA95Q)
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I'm always curious about this homosexual agenda, because I keep looking for it in office supply stores, and I can never find it.
Are the pages adorned with inspiring quotes from Christopher Isherwood?
Is the agenda covered in rainbow-patterned fabric, hot pink, or a subtle lavender?
I wonder if they carry it at A Different Light bookstore in West Hollywood. (Funny story: I was on my way there once, dressed in a pink skirt with a white cotton tank top, and wearing makeup. Just walking along the street, minding my own business. And a guy who passed me said, loudly, "aren't there any real dykes anymore?"
Los Angeles being the land of the lipstick lesbians, I just smiled at him and laughed. Didn't bother to explain.)
Posted by: Attila Girl at July 16, 2007 12:38 PM (VgDLl)
Posted by: I R A Darth Aggie at July 16, 2007 01:01 PM (1hM1d)
Posted by: Attila Girl at July 16, 2007 10:20 PM (VgDLl)
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July 13, 2007
The Good News Is, My Mom's Okay.
The bad news:
1) Urgent Care was closed last night, and we couldn't get an appointment with her regular doctor until after 2:00 p.m. today. I went ahead and crashed there last night, not knowing when she'd be able to go—and wanting to make sure she got a ride there.
2) Because she's unable to host our out-of-town cousins due to this illness, I'm doing it;
3) I have the messiest, dirtiest house in the history of cluttered houses, and only had about an hour today to try to fix that;
4) I only slept 2-3 hours last night, and got in maybe a 45-minute nap today;
5) Did I mention that our house is dirty and messy?
The adrenaline is wearing off (or maybe the tranqs are kicking in). And yet I'm almost afraid to go to sleep: there's this fear that I won't wake up for days.
Also, I need to go clean some spoons off; what if everyone wants cereal for breakfast this morning? Jeez; I must be insane.
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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My prayers are with you. And your mom.
I have been going through a similar situation for the last two weeks--the illness part with my mom. If I had visitors, I would tell them that it's customary to forage for food in California. And never mind the house--dust and such is to be expected with the constant earthquakes.
Posted by: Darrell at July 13, 2007 05:34 AM (V50PL)
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June 24, 2007
I'm Here.
But all I want to do this weekend is sleep. I'm not depressed; I'm just tired. Though I do intend to do a bit of laundry tonight, and we will be going to church.
One of my supervisors at work asked me specifically whether I'd be reading this weekend, to unwind, and I laughed and said "no." The truth, of course, is much sicker: of course I read myself to sleep last night.
Though I didn't analyze the grammar, or look for typos.
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Sleep is under-rated. Everyone should try it.
Night or Afternoon Mass on Sunday? California!
Posted by: Darrell at June 24, 2007 09:51 PM (+/E1Q)
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The Sunday evening mass features guitar music, which the husband despises: most of our local RC Churches use the Sunday p.m. mass as the "youth mass."
Having misspent my youth in a Christian cult in the 1970s, I find guitar music plenty spiritual--but the pre-Vat II crowd don't seem to care for it, as a rule.
Nonetheless, our priest--whom I argue with relentlessly about modern architecture--delivered a fabulous homily. And it was just as well that I was there, since they were short by several EMs, so I stepped up to the plate.
Posted by: Attila Girl at June 25, 2007 07:05 AM (VgDLl)
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I am hearing "Lord of the Dance" on guitars.
God help us all. . .
Posted by: Darrell at June 25, 2007 07:43 PM (wi2j/)
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"Though I didn't analyze the grammar, or look for typos."
Uhuh - sure. I may have fallen off the turnip truck, but it wasn't last night!
Posted by: Jim at June 28, 2007 02:23 PM (Js41B)
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That would be "uh-huh." Or, "huh."
If you were Glenn Reynolds, it would be "heh."
Posted by: Attila Girl at June 28, 2007 05:09 PM (VgDLl)
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June 12, 2007
Twenty-Seven Days
. . . until I turn thirty-fifteen (the person from whom I stole this numbering system may drop by and claim credit, if she wishes).
I do, of course, have an Amazon wish list, as every good subscriber-supported chick must. (If you do decide to check that out, please adjust the list to display my desired presents in order of priority. It seems to want to default to a date-based "stack system," which is not helpful to any of us.)
Money always works, of course (see my PayPal button on the left sidebar): that helps me to go to blogging conferences, market my proofreading/writing, and fill in a few business wardrobe gaps before the Big Assignment this September/October. Or, you know: I might buy gin and get a birthday tattoo. Those aren't really business expenses, but they are fun.
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Green Day?????
Somebody please "pinch" one, and send it to LMA. Better yet, pinch a truckload, send one, and destroy the rest. American idiots, indeed.
Posted by: Darrell at June 12, 2007 12:55 PM (7JNG5)
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Sorry about that; my nephews like Green Day, so I must listen to their music so I can figure out what sort of "real" music (e.g., produced before 1990) I should expose them to.
Posted by: Attila Girl at June 12, 2007 09:53 PM (T/5EZ)
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What you like will serve them well in life. What they like is a function of group-think and marketing campaigns, Also let them know that rap is short for crap, and everything will be fine. Let them know Blondie(Rapture) brought rap to the mainstream, and people with no musical talent decided that it was a good way to make a fortune in the music biz, absent the ability to sing or play an instrument.
Posted by: Darrell at June 13, 2007 09:52 AM (L2xt8)
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I like Blondie, by the way. Debbie Harry, too. Even Tish and Snooky. I don't hold experimenting with rap against them. If you need to communicate with Tish and Snooky, I know where they are.
Posted by: Darrell at June 13, 2007 09:45 PM (RGZxL)
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I don't think rap has been the same since Grandmaster Flash. Or maybe Run DMC: they were the bomb.
Posted by: Attila Girl at June 13, 2007 09:56 PM (VgDLl)
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June 04, 2007
Dearie Me.
I'm feeling
quite a bit bitchier than usual tonight. I wonder what it is. Let's consider the possibilities:
1) Joy, it's just that you're tired. Go to bed. Like, now.
2) Either give up volunteering, or go somewhere where it'll be appreciated, rather than working with those slack-jawed, dimwitted ingrates you're hanging out with these days.
3) Men. It's their doing. All of them. They collude.
4) Welcome to menopause.
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May 19, 2007
From Martin G
. . . comes this picture of me in West Los Angeles, taken when I was in my mid-twenties or something like that.
Note the bad hair dye: that was on purpose. I was doing this trailer-trash thing around then, for whatever reason. (I mean, I was wearing it on my cut-off, 80s-style sleeve . . . . )
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May 12, 2007
The Spirit Is Willing, But the Flesh is Resentful.
What if I told you there were a handful of individuals in whom I have trouble seeing the face of God?
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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I'd assume you were being honest, and I might share
that I have a similar difficulty.
The answer, of course, is to pray -- ask God to bless them.
I recall we are commanded to do so.
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at May 13, 2007 02:12 PM (aTv/9)
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Yes. And I do it. But I don't do it often enough, and I don't enjoy it much . . .
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 13, 2007 03:14 PM (2WBcM)
Posted by: Darrell at May 13, 2007 08:31 PM (7cB5r)
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May 09, 2007
Bad Carpentry vs. Bad Masonry.
My mom needs a little deck or patio in her yard. Since her budget for this is pretty close to zero, I'm trying to figure out whether it would be easier/cheaper to build a little wooden platform there (something sturdy enough to last a few years), or simply level it out and use brick/sand to make a patio in between the "dog runs" and people paths.
Thoughts?
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easier? last longer? definitely brick and sand. Probably a tad more expensive, though.
You just level out the dirt, place the bricks (spaced, of course) and pour the sand on top. Then you spread the sand into the spaces with a broom. keep adding sand until the spaces are full of packed sand.
Pretty straightforward, and no measuring or cutting to goof up.
Posted by: caltechgirl at May 09, 2007 03:27 PM (r0kgl)
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Go to a few good home centers and look at the choices for pavers and concrete paving blocks. Look for something that stands up to abuse--'accidentally' drop one from a decent height on some others. With the range of choices available, you can create a masterpiece jigsaw puzzle that would amaze everyone (with your copy editing/graphic design superpowers). Caltechgirl's advice is right on the money, but remember you'll need a good bed of sand (at least 1-2 inches, compacted), so you may have to remove a little topsoil. Use a couple 8' PVC schedule 40 pipes, 1" or 11/2")and lay them on a layer of sand and use them to screed off a consistent thickness of sand with a long, straight board and two people. Slide the pipes back and gently fill in the void with sand from an empty coffee can and level off. Start placing brick/pavers and continue until you are done. Avoid cutting by dry fitting your design first. Make it as big as you like with no cuts. A pro would use a gas compactor with that sand afterward but you can just keep doing it and walking on it until the joints don't accept any more sand.
Posted by: Darrell at May 09, 2007 08:10 PM (fZnAt)
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Okay--so the piping is there to compress/level the sand? Like a rolling pin would do to a pie crust? (Without the spreading effect that pie dough produces, presumably?)
One more question: If I have to start (and maybe even finish) this project without my male cousins or part-time brother around, can two strong women do what's necessary? (If necessary, I can recruit A the H, but his deadlines are NASTY these days.)
And do I need to dampen the ground before I level it off? I guess that would help.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 09, 2007 09:53 PM (2WBcM)
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Oh, yes, and--what kind of sand do I need for this?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 09, 2007 10:02 PM (2WBcM)
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Well, you KNOW which one I'd opt for.
And past experience shows that one woman all alone - even a crip - can do this just fine.
Slower, perhaps. But doable. I use some great one-person shortcuts.
Yes, sand. (More on sand below.) Your local building code folks may have opinions on this, about what kind of sand is required. Also, whether you are supposed to file a permit first is their call. Should they insist, then whether or not you decide to comply is
your call. In my little town folks swing both ways. The permit fee here is usually $50.
The sand
under the bricks should be compacted too. First you level it (scree), but that doesn't have to be elaborate. Me, I first just sort of spread it around by shovel, eyeballing it for level.
Then - and this is important - compact it. Rather than rent a power compactor, I use water, and, like Darrell said, simply walk on it. Works great.
Water compacting is a very old, recently scorned, but very effective means. I use it all the time. I like to run the hose on the sand, then walk around on it in a squarish spiral, back and forth, until it's really solid. You can feel when it's ready with your feet. (The cats used to greatly enjoy this exercise, BTW. Often more as spectators than participants, since they didn't like to get their little paws sandy, unlike their mama.)
Now: When done walking, I water it again. When the water pools in a level manner? Then I know it's level, and ready to lay the brick. No fussing around with a long mason's level, unless you love to for its own sake (moi?!?).
If there are lower spots in the sand, the water will gather there to tell me so. I add a little sand, walk on it, water it. This saves me costs in not using 2x4's or pipes to scree it first, and effort and manpower. It's a good way to work alone. Then, because it's tested for how level it is
after the sand is compacted, it's really a more sturdy sand bed in the end. Better product, easier, faster, cheaper. What's not to like?
D's thoughts on patterns are also great fun. He's absolutely correct about the variety you can create with today's pavers and such.
Patterns are an old, old art. With brick you can also make patterns, of course; and these patterns, *bonds,* are often traditional and have names (running bond, herringbone, basket weave). My paths are running bond and one slave path; my driveway is a staggered modified basket weave; my front patio is herringbone.
Now: A few years ago, in my interest in developing ever new brick bonds, I meandered my way into thoughts that came to always remind me of you. Dig this: Quilting.
Quilting patterns arise from the fact that most cloth scraps are linear-based, right? Squarish. Think *Log Cabin.* Someday I'll be making decorative mosaic brick or tile patterns based on quilting patterns.
So even though modern pavers come in more interesting shapes than just rectangles, that doesn't mean you can't make cool patterns with bricks.
Me, being something of a stick-in-the-mud on this, I like my St. Joe Brick, purchased straight from the brickyard in Slidell, Louisiana, hauled home in our own truck. Of course, this is not always an option for everyone.
But if you are enamored of real brick, the kind made of clay and fired - as opposed to the concrete pavers - you'll likely pay a little more up front, but increase the value of your home improvement job enormously. My brick driveway added at least $10,000 - $20,000 in value to the house, far more than concrete pavers would, and actually cost less than pavers to construct. If you shop around, watch ads and such, used Chicago or St. Louis etc. brick can still be had for less than concrete pavers. And they are beautiful. Just gorgeous. It's, it's Nordstrom's vs. Sears. Pavers are perfectly okay, but brick is elegant.
When you place the bricks, after you've laid them out and are satisfied with the placement, whack them into the sand with a hammer or mini sledgehammer (*maul*). It really makes a difference. Even though this is still *dry paving* - meaning, you're not using mortar - to set the bricks firmly into the sand will help them hold their place for years longer.
When you put the top sand on? I use the hose again. I carelessly toss a lot of top sand on, spread it sloppy with a broom or shovel, hose it into the cracks, add more sand, etc. till done. Much less work than using just a broom, and in the end? In my experience, it's a far better product. The water gets the sand tight in between the bricks like nobody's business. You will be amazed how much top sand those bricks will eat.
Many people discover this fact only after the first rain they get after they broomed the sand in. They'll sometimes tell me the top sand *washed away.* Wrong, It simply washed into the little air spaces between the bricks that they didn't completely fill the first time around because they didn't use water.
Really, any kind of construction sand works. Your local Home Depot type place sells different grades (meaning size, and sometimes type, of the sand grains) by the bag. Or, you can get a cheaper small truckload from a construction supply place; some will deliver for cheap, some not; most let you pick up a load in a rented or personal pickup truck. Bulk buying can save a lot of cost.
Again, your local building code folks may have some firm opinions on what kind of sand is *supposed* to go there. Me, I like to use our local *sugar sand,* which I just dig up in the yard and wash in the wheelbarrow until the loam is gone and there's nothing but pure white sand left.
The local building code folks tell me this is WRONG WRONG WRONG and sugar sand can never work well as the underlay OR the top sand because it's WAY TOO FINE GRAINED!!!
and of course, as I meander all over my paths and patios all built using sugar sand - and the driveway, done Their Way - I have comparative proof positive they're full of it. But hey. Facts never changed government's mind before. Why should today be any different?
Have fun!
Posted by: k at May 10, 2007 02:19 AM (zBbuE)
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Depends on who is doing the labor: if you have someone else to do this, definitely go with sand and masonry.
If YOU are doing it, keep in mind that all of that sand and masonry material weighs a TON (literally, or MORE), and involves a lot of digging and moving this heavy, heavy material around. "K's" info above is very useful, with the minor exception that there is absolutely NO shortcut in dealing with the weight of all of the material it will take to get a good solid finished project (other than getting someone esle to deal with it).
If it were ME doing it, treated lumber will last quite a while, and is much less involved, takes much less exertion, costs are similar or less than the masonry option, in addition to looking a bit more professional when finished (my opinion only). Some minor rough carpentry skills are required, along with a circular saw, a level, some deck screws and an electric hand drill. Do really do a bang up job, you might want to pour concrete footers at the base of the steps, but then again maybe you can get by with a few pavers as the base.
Have fun.
Posted by: Dr. Steech at May 10, 2007 07:24 AM (+CTlT)
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The PVC pipes insure a consistent depth of the sand...and when you run the straight board(your screed--I use a 2x6, if handy) over the two pipes(think rails, as in railroad)you have a level surface. If you are still unclear, think the pipes run north and south, and your straightedge moving east and west). Use builder's sand--available at any home center in bags, or have delivered from a landscape center by truck. You can check your local classifieds for used brick and pavers(pavers are thicker, fired longer, and carry heavier loads. I agree with k about using water to compact the sand in the joints. I would have mentioned it after you decided to go ahead with this project. I would add, use the retaining strips they sell at home centers around the perimeter of your finished patio, and stake them in with the aluminum stakes they sell there too. It keeps the outer pavers from moving...and once those move, the whole patio can start pulling apart. A patio made of pavers is a good job for the 4th of July weekend. Have everything ready to go, and invite friends and family over to provide the labor--cart and pass the brick. You can set the bricks, placing each one straight down-sliding it against the adjacent brick avoiding disturbing your sand base. You'll knock it out in one day---assuming you don't start serving the beer until after it's done. You can go modular with this project, if you like. Finish a small design that satisfies her needs, then expand it when you are in the mood. Lay out the whole design first, of course and anticipate problems with the grade for the future sections.
If you go with wood and a basic design that is in contact with the soil, use pressure-treated wood for the part that touches the ground.
Normal brick is not designed for horizontal use where water can remain in contact. Only a very thin layer of the outside of a brick is fired hard. If you scrape (damage) that outside skin, you'll find that the interior is quite soft. That's why ordinary brick can't be used in areas like Chicago that experience freeze-thaw cycles. SF/Cali??? That's another matter. Pavers are designed for horizontal applications. They are fired for a much longer time and the hard layer is very thick.
Posted by: Darrell at May 10, 2007 09:14 AM (Zv+eQ)
8
It turns out the mom has a pile of used bricks she forgot to mention, in the garage. I'll have to find out the origin of 'em, but it's tempting just to try them out on a cost basis.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 10, 2007 09:39 AM (2WBcM)
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Finding a load of used brick in the garage of the house in question is a Sign!
IMHO.
I wouldn't worry too much about their origin, myself. It's not like you'll be driving cars on it, right?
I'm perhaps a bit more casual about the brick specs than some folks are. But I really do have good reason. Here's how my St. Joe Brick has performed in real life.
-First, this is *colonial wood mould face brick,* meaning currently it's not considered standard construction-grade brick - although it was, and very much so, in the past.
-It's not glazed; just ordinary uncoated clay brick. The whole brick is permeable to water, and when you dunk a dry brick in a tub, it'll bubble for 10 minutes soaking up water like a sponge. Rather than being a detriment, this is actually a big plus in a hot area: they are *air conditioner* bricks, that cool the whole house down by evaporation.
-St. Joe Brick is handmade by a bunch of semi-literate old black guys, filling a mix of sand and clay into wooden moulds, then drying and firing the brick. I've met most of them personally. They do use some big antique mixing machines and such, so it's not ALL done by hand. The kiln where they're fired is an ancient and beautiful *beehive* kiln made of *fire brick.*
-The resulting bricks are speckled with melted iron pyrite and other minerals, and have some cracks and things too. They're not hard to cut by hand, for me anyway; I cut them by hand faster than my neighbor does his with a machine.
-While they're not hardened the same way *pavers* are, they're at full thickness. Pavers are generally *split,* meaning they're only around half as thick as a brick. So while there are gains in strength with specifically made pavers, there's also some loss.
Now: All the above facts make modern paver people scorn the heck out of my brick. They'll allow that St. Joe might work on *decorative paths* - IOW where no one would actually walk, so it wouldn't have to bear any weight. But on a real sidewalk?
Or - heaven forbid! - a
driveway? Like, where cars drive and park?
After I finished the driveway, it was perfectly fine for a couple years holding car and light to medium truck traffic. Then came Hurricane Wilma. Not only were other people's asphalt and paver driveways disrupted by the actions of toppling trees and tree roots pulling up, just the flooding and windstorm damage messed up a lot of people's drives. Piles of upended and broken pavers were scattered everywhere.
We, of course, had the famous Two Trees on the House incident, and so forth.
Walter brought the big rig home. He used it to hoist the 25' queen palm back up. He left the rig on the drive for a couple weeks so we could use the engine batteries to power the house via a converter.
This all means, that very heavy truck not only parked on my dry-paved St. Joe Brick driveway, it drove all over it, manoeuvring around to pull up the queen palm.
Not one brick was dislodged. Not one brick was even cracked.
So, IMO? Whatever strength brick you use for that back patio, with the type of traffic the patio needs to hold, will probably be just fine.
Posted by: k at May 11, 2007 06:04 AM (zBbuE)
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I guess you've never seen a spalling brick, k. When moisture enters a brick and freezes, the face splits off, and the brick eventually crumbles away over time. Those of us who live in areas where the temperatures dip well below freezing know it well. Even in warmer climes, there still is a problem with stratification fatigue caused by wetting/drying cycles. The mechanism for this is that moisture absorbs into the brick during a "damp" cycle, and the brick expands due to the moisture to a finite depth. The brick with no moisture or little moisture at greater depth, expands less. Then the brick dries out (dry cycle)and shrinks to some depth, while the "steady-state" (inner)portion of the brick stays the same. At this interface of wet-dry cycling, the brick fatigues and eventually spalls. The durability of brick results from incipient fusion and partial vitrification during firing. Since compressive strength and absorption are also related to the firing temperatures, these properties, together with saturation coefficients, are taken as predictors of durability. However, because of differences in raw materials, a single value of compressive strength or absorption will not reliably indicate the degree of firing.
And Chicago "penny" pavers are 11 1/2" x 4", btw, never split. Pick one up and you'll notice the density right away. It's definitely a "two-hander".
You are right that it probably won't matter much. Whatever brick is used, you'll get 10, probably even twenty years of service out of the project... I like to shoot for the ages myself. I take pleasure in knowing that I will someday annoy someone generations into the future when they dismantle my work.
Posted by: Darrell at May 11, 2007 09:29 AM (JDSeE)
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Don't let me interrupt the argument, but I was just told that the bricks in question are from the patio off of my old bedroom--the one we moved into in the 1970s. They used fresh bricks when they rebuilt it a few years back. These are the old bricks; I'm sure they'd do just fine.
Though I must figure out how to cut 'em, and what to use as an edge.
i moved the doghouse off of the area in question yestarday, and it's nice. Though the paths could use some attention; I might just throw some pea gravel on 'em for now.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 11, 2007 10:47 AM (2WBcM)
12
Try to lay out a pattern that doesn't require cutting, first. I would go to a discount tool store and get a 4 1/2" angle grinder and a masonry grinding wheel. You should pay under $30. Draw a line on the brick with pencil, lightly score(following the line), then repeat light passes until your cut is over an inch deep. Place cut line over an edge and tap with a mallet. Snap! You can score the line with a chisel and hammer, and repeat until you get to the critical depth. But that is a lot more work and a lot more problematic.
Posted by: Darrell at May 11, 2007 11:37 AM (C99Ct)
13
For some reason I keep fantasizing about a round patio, but I do know that would be cutting city. The alternative would be to transform the edges into little herb planters . . . impractical, right?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 11, 2007 12:10 PM (2WBcM)
14
Have you looked at those gazabo kits? they are all over places like Home Depot and such.
Posted by: Bloggermouth at May 11, 2007 04:32 PM (QYSnd)
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For a truly circular pattern, every block has to be cut (angled). They sell pre-fab kits in paver brick for these designs. The pavers themselves are angled t provide a uniform joint(gap). You can't have wide gaps filled with sand in a do-it-yourself design. It wouldn't hold up and just think what would happen if your stiletto heel got caught in one of those spaces. The angle grinder will give you good clean cuts, even if you aren't experienced with power tools. It's a lot safer than a circular saw with a diamond or masonry blade too. I would buy some thinner cutoff wheels they sell at Home Depot. They fit angle grinders...you'll find them near the pneumatic tools in cardboard bins. Pep Boys has inexpensive grinders. They're good enough to hold up for several jobs like this. They might sell the cut-of wheels as well.(??)
Take your X-acto knife and make a template out of thin cardboard to work out your design on paper.You'll see what cuts you'll need--and any gaps.
Making planters in the edge is a great idea! Better still because all you have to do is leave some bricks out! I did something like that once using the standard sizes for planters at the nursery. I could just pop a new plant in the space to change things out. Incorporate a drip irrigation system and you'll have a winner!
Posted by: Darrell at May 11, 2007 08:00 PM (IxV2v)
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*sigh*
Darrell.
Of course I've seen what can happen to brick in freezing temps.
I'm from Chicago.
Part of my point was that LMA is not.
Neither is she building the Dan Ryan expressway.
I know that my own brick work in Louisiana, and here for a shorter period so far, has stood the test of time, and it looks like it will continue to do so.
When I say these things I mean no personal disrespect to you. I myself truly have no interest in arguing. While I know many people do enjoy it, it satisfies nothing in me. I'd far prefer to send you a box of mangoes instead.
In the time I have left here on earth, I like to enjoy my own work, and like to see others do the same. I don't look at building backyard foot-traffic patios in the same light as a driveway or a building. I like to see people do something they haven't done before, and I'm fond of brick, and I know LMA enjoyed the work she did a while back on construction.
So my point was that a person can do a good quality job on a first time attempt without being too intimidated by the engineering details. Especially in an area that doesn't experience freezes. That's all.
Posted by: k at May 11, 2007 09:43 PM (zBbuE)
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Oooh. I knew that one was coming.
Come on, K--you know how guys are about over-engineering stuff.
My own goals are modest, however: I'm hoping she'll get some use out of this over the summer, because (being my mom) by next summer she will have staked out another sitting area in her yard that is EVEN MORE PERFECT!
Got the mangoes. Ate one. Yummy! See separate post.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 11, 2007 10:19 PM (2WBcM)
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Ever read the words "you can't do it" in any of my comments? My philosophy is always "I do it, so can you!". You can add "I can help" for people I like, as well.
And didn't I posit a plausible mechanism for product failure in climates where freeze/thaw cycles are not a factor, like SoCal?
Is selecting a product designed and engineered for a specific application over-engineering? Especially considering that when this thread started there was no secret stash of bricks in the garage. I am never one to suggest that anything you have on hand go to waste. And I have not suggested buying anything since. Except the angle grinder for safe cutting, of course.
Engineers sweat the details so you don't have to. That's why we go to bed thinking about point loads on that patio surface. Why we think about 125-pound women wearing high heels and that 1/4" point of contact that will generate 2000 psi of force. How an even smaller edge on metal patio furniture when someone is leaning in the chair can generate loads exceeding 8000 psi--enough force to pulverize concrete! We think about our dreams of one day establishing our homes as sanctuaries for all those 0-size models persecuted and driven from their jobs in Europe...and imagine those point loads on our patios! And those legs! It's not easy!
Posted by: Darrell at May 12, 2007 02:28 PM (3lHEJ)
19
On the other hand, a little bit of spalling here and there, and the occasional cracked brick make for a bit of character in a wall or patio.
My back yard is full of brickwork done by the previous owner using salvaged brick. It doesn't look terribly professional. Some of the bricks are spalling. But I wouldn't trade any of it for professionally installed, "properly engineered" walls and planters. It has character. Same with the bathroom which was tiled with salvaged tile taken off the old courthouse building during a renovation a couple decades ago. "Naive art" is what I think some people call it.
If YOU are doing it, keep in mind that all of that sand and masonry material weighs a TON (literally, or MORE), and involves a lot of digging and moving this heavy, heavy material around.
Darrel, you are always going to get in hot water implying that all this brick and sand is too much for the little ladies to handle, especially when they've already proven otherwise.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 12, 2007 07:59 PM (ogl5V)
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I'm not really worried about that part: both the mom and I are reasonably strong, and we have access to handcarts. I have noticed that I like to buy stuff like gravel and sand in small bags, when feasible, but there is
always a way.
D, I don't suppose it will make any difference to point out that I it's unlikely I'll ever wear heels in my mom's backyard? Didn't think so.
Of course, to be fair, there are a lot of very big people in my family—we tend to run either short and squat (except me), or reasonably tall. Most of my relatives pack a lot of weight, one way or another.
I'm thinking 9 x 10, right now. That'll work for a first foray into masonry.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 12, 2007 09:44 PM (2WBcM)
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Can't anyone read. I supported the brick patrio idea from the very beginning. First sentence:"Go to a few good home centers and look at the choices for pavers and concrete paving blocks."
Posted by: Darrell at May 13, 2007 07:06 AM (2a74D)
22
No, no--you're being great. But there's a school of thought out there that you're over-cautious WRT brick.
I, however, like to have as much information available as possible, so I welcome everyone's input.
This is going to be terribly exciting, if I pull it off!
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 13, 2007 11:49 AM (2WBcM)
23
I was thinking about this: "Darrel, you are always going to get in hot water implying that all this brick and sand is too much for the little ladies to handle, especially when they've already proven otherwise.--Desert Cat"
Never said it. Never will.
I just don't think spalling is beautiful. Or bricks are found in nature. Or that I must buy bricks from Gaia-worshippers with Pica who crap them out in sacred hand-carved wooden forms and dry them in solar ovens.
If I wanted spalling, I'd take my 12-gauge and do it myself with teflon-coated double-ought hand-loaded shells. . .
But none of that applies to you. I'd use what I have. If it wasn't enough, I'd buy something that would go with what I had, and work it into the design. I'd eliminate cuts unless I totally needed to add curves for the site/grade. If I had hundreds of cuts to make, I would rent a wet cut tile saw with a sliding bed/stationary diamond blade(with a big enough blade to do the cut). If I had only a few cuts to make, I would use the angle grinder and buy it. When done, I would use polymeric sand from the home center for joint locking(Home Depot , et al), weed control and to prevent insect mining.
Be it big or be it small,
do it right
or not at all.
Burke's Law
Posted by: Darrell at May 13, 2007 08:29 PM (7cB5r)
24
"Right" is a matter of what you're after.
Sandblasting would probably produce a nicer weathered appearance, although I've considered (but never tried yet) putting bricks together with a sand slurry in a cement mixer to soften the edges and give the appearance of weathering. There's nothing I hate worse than the angular, glazed appearance of brand new brick in a well-established garden.
I *have* seen instructions on how to get moss/algae started growing quickly on new brick to give an established appearance however. Moss+yogurt in a blender, thinned to a slurry and then sprayed on. Haven't tried that yet either.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 13, 2007 09:52 PM (ogl5V)
25
There's a reason some people become engineers, and some become artists.
Conversation is an art too. Some folks can discuss things cordially even when their opinions or tastes differ. Others become outraged and stomp about implying the other folks can't do a worthwhile job, and are stupid new-agers to boot. It's often seemed to me that a reaction like that is what truly separates the men from the boys.
Darrell, the funny thing is, since you don't have a blog of your own, I really did come by to say *Hi* and see if you might like a box of mangoes. I'm sending a box around to everyone who helped out with the scooter fund, to say *Thanks for doing such a nice thing.*
But it looks like I must have dialed a wrong number. Sorry.
Posted by: k at May 14, 2007 01:44 AM (zBbuE)
26
I agree that written conversation is an art. And a big part of that is not mispresenting what the other person is saying. Go back and re-read my comments and see if your words apply. Or if I was being mean. I was just giving tips I picked up over the years from doing many such projects. Like using pipes and a screed to insure a consistent bed sand level for the base--something I know you can never eyeball. Sample a few dozen points in an eyeball job with a steel rule, and you'll see what I mean. And you find different grades of sand specific to the individual uses--base, quick leveling, interlocking--at the home centers, too. Tips and tricks of the trades. Copy and paste where I say that anyone's ideas are worthless. You'll find that the comment box is blank. Ditto with mean remarks with your name attached, k. Just conversation. I guess not everyone can handle it. We agree/we disagree--conversation.
Your welcome, k! No other thanks necessary.
And you'll find a whole range of tumbled/distressed pavers and stones at the home center, btw. Edge-softening is something the manufacturers picked up on, too. Go figure.
Posted by: Darrell at May 14, 2007 08:49 AM (S+FtZ)
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April 11, 2007
Okay. Say You Knew Someone
. . . who was pushing 45, and had dry, sensitive skin even in her youth. This person's hands are beginning to look like she wears crocodile gloves, and her face is covered in fine lines.
But she's breaking out. As in, acne.
Whom would you blame for this phenomenon?
I'm going to go with the tried-and-true—George W. Bush—unless someone has a better idea. I'm certainly open to suggestions.
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1
Perimenopause
http://hubpages.com/hub/acne-help-women
Posted by: Bob at April 11, 2007 06:30 AM (CP6tB)
2
Bob, know how to get on a woman's shit list? Apparently not. . .
Guess No. 2: You are going through your second childhood! Current 'age' ? 15. Readers should check California law concerning writing to a 15-year-old/contributing to her delinquency.
Posted by: Darrell at April 11, 2007 08:55 AM (7QbXY)
3
Darrell,
It occurred to me that certain people might be offended
by the answer _after_ i had pressed the post button.
The truth is, I remember when my wife had a bad time with
"certain symptons" and I wanted to be helpful, not hurtful.
Aging beats the alternative.
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at April 11, 2007 09:50 AM (CP6tB)
4
I laughed out loud, Bob.
Haven't been to the link yet, but if it's as good as your car leads, it'll be a winner. More via email, but you've been amazing WRT the car project; we're totally on-track to make our "decision deadline" on that.
Posted by: Attila Girl at April 11, 2007 10:52 PM (6C0F9)
5
Global warming. Which means you have only yourself to blame. You may, however, be able to buy some acne offsets...
Posted by: Woody at April 12, 2007 06:52 PM (iXWYc)
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April 08, 2007
And Then There is My 96-Year-Old Grandmother.
We had drifted a bit in the past 20 years. Perhaps when I expected her to be warm and grandmotherly, she was cold and practical. And, perhaps, vice versa: when she wanted a devoted granddaughter, she was presented with the cynical thinking machine.
But something changed this time around. And I don't know why. Or maybe I do, but I don't want to dissect it quite yet. Not here. Not now.
Her mind is of course still razor-sharp, but the body has been betraying her for a few years. She's frail, and she knows that her bones are weak, so she does everything she can to avoid falling: she understands the stakes, and takes hold of anything that will help her to keep her balance. (And let us remember that our vices can be blessings. I've been addicted to milk since childhood. I tend to run the gamut from skim to 2% and back again, but I still consume plenty of dairy. If I live as long as I intend to, that might turn into a Damn Fine Thing.)
Naturally, I ask her about the years she lived in Phoenix. She tells me a little, but I don't press the issue when it becomes clear that she was miserable for the four years she lived there with her parents, from the age of 18 to 22.
She gave up crafts ten or 15 years ago, but she was an expert knitter back in middle age and her early senior years (and an expert seamstress, crocheter, weaver, and general craftswoman to boot).
I tell her I keep trying to go back to knitting. I explain that my mood swings have too strong an influence on how tight I pull the yarn, and my rows come out uneven, like a child's work. (I am exaggerating as I say this, but not by much.)
She leans forward and confides: "those mood swings come from your mother."
It wasn't said maliciously, though I doubt my mother would take kindly to the remark (and I'm very happy she doesn't read my blog). Of course it's mostly correct.
My father continues to insist that his mother once came to blows with his first wife (my own mom), several years before I was born. My mother has always denied this, but this doesn't happen to be one of the arenas in which my father makes up his own facts. It's exactly the sort of issue wherein his memory would be superior to hers.
I should have asked grandma about that today. "So, who laid on the first bitch-slap, huh?"
Well, you know: I didn't. It is Easter, after all.
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April 02, 2007
Wow.
Another
link over at Glenn's place. This one is about ambitious teenagers and the strange signals they are sent.
I could only read the first page: the messages sent to young women today sound too much like the ones I grew up with. All of the "you can have it all" stuff eventually transmutes into "you can do it all." It's a lie, of course.
"Why," I once asked my mother, "did you tell me grades didn't matter, that you just wanted me to learn? Why did you say that when it was so patently untrue?"
"It didn't occur to me that you'd actually get bad grades," she told me. "It just that I thought the 'A' level was down here"—she brought her hand to her waist—"and I really wanted you to achieve up here." She raised her right hand high above her head.
She laughed. My aunt and my cousins were there, watching us. They've spent 44 years watching us; we must be fascinating, like a cock fight. Or, I suppose, a hen fight.
I said nothing that day, because I couldn't trust myself not to say or do something awful. But later on I figured out what she had really meant by "don't worry about grades, just concentrate on learning." She had wanted me to get very good grades, but make it look effortless.
On some level, I got the message: I manage to hold the idea of housework, for example, in complete contempt as a total waste of my time. And yet at the very same instance I'm deeply ashamed that my house isn't perfectly neat and totally spotless. I should do it perfectly without looking like I do it at all.
I require myself to be completely yin, and yet totally yang. At any given moment.
And I carry the hen fight within me, every day.
Today I had dinner with my mother. I drove her where she needed to go, and let her buy me dinner, and listened to her criticize my driving—relentlessly, and in a thoroughly illogical, inconsistent fashion. And when she got around to apologizing, I told her it was fine.
"I'm not insecure about my driving," I explained.
I'm a human bonsai: twisted by nature, and made more grotesque/beautiful by strange nurture.
But what I will do is endure. And endurance is triumph.
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1
Wow, I love the last two lines of this post: I'm a human bonsai: twisted by nature, and made more grotesque/beautiful by strange nurture.
But what I will do is endure. And endurance is triumph.
I will be quoting you on that for sure.
Posted by: Anne at April 03, 2007 06:17 AM (FU77D)
2
In life there are always only two choices:
1. Discipline
2. Regrets
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at April 03, 2007 07:20 AM (CP6tB)
3
Well, (2) can be gotten round, but it takes some doing. Sociopathy is an option, as is suicide. But they are expensive choices.
Posted by: Attila Girl at April 03, 2007 08:05 AM (1tv3E)
4
Anne, I was partly playing off of a Jane Rule line about "the grotesque miracle of love."
Posted by: Attila Girl at April 03, 2007 08:07 AM (1tv3E)
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February 19, 2007
It's Not That I Don't Like Kids.
It's just that they are noisy, self-indulgent, lazy creatures who appear to think of nothing other than computer games and watching videos.
Of course, being in a cabin with with five children, four computers and three large-screen televisions is going to lead to media overload.
I'm a curmudgeon: I put a piece of paper on my laptop proclaiming it's "Joy's computer--do not use."
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LMA wrote: "I put a piece of paper on my laptop proclaiming it's "Joy's computer--do not use.""
Thus making it irresistible to the kids.
FWIW, I'm thinking that any building large enough to
contain all of the people, computers and other devices
you've described is more of a "chateau" than a "cabin".
-Bob
Posted by: Bob at February 19, 2007 01:20 PM (2tBSJ)
2
Five bedrooms plus a game room; 4700 sq. feet.
Yes. It was quite large, but we got a great deal.
Posted by: Attila Girl at February 19, 2007 04:59 PM (0CbUL)
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I Survived.
Please note that although roast beef takes around the same amount of time to cook at 6000 feet as it does at 2000 feet, quiches take twice as long.
Fortunately, there was plenty of salad, and almost enough roast beef to go around while we waited.
And when the quiches did show up, they were much appreciated.
But two different quiche recipes is a bit much; I need to figure out what the best approach is, and make double of that—then I'll just add the extras at the last minute: bacon for the quiche lorraine, and onion for the vegetarian one.
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February 17, 2007
Hello From Pine Mountain.
I'm in the mountains north of Los Angeles, where I'm spending the three-day weekend with friends I've known since high school. We used to do this once or twice a year—get away from the city for a weekend, or several days, or a whole week.
We kept doing it when we were in college, and then when we started working. The modality continued to evolve, but we never stayed away from it for more than a few years.
I'm mostly here, of course, to see Little Blonde Bitch, M.D. and her family, since it's been a good long time since I've even laid eyes on them.
But I'm here with three other "single" people (folks whose spouses or sig others are too smart to want to come along), and two complete families, including a total of five children. (It would have been seven, except that my roommate from fifteen years ago had a family mishap and couldn't make it.)
This is completely insane: in four or six hours, the noise level may well be intolerable.
The difference from my youth? I'm not crashed on a couch, or sharing a bedroom with two other couples. I'm tucked safely away in a bedroom, behind a door that I will desperately need tomorrow morning.
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1
In early July, we are hosting a gathering for all of the people we knew in the church we attended in Germany. It looks like multiple families will be in attendance.
Posted by: John at February 17, 2007 12:09 PM (+0oIY)
2
These things are always such high-risk games. The question is, what are the stakes for you?
If they are high, sometimes it's better not to participate.
Posted by: Attila Girl at February 18, 2007 12:05 AM (ow/Nx)
3
You volunteer to endure this? You're a tougher woman than you take credit for. With enough private time intervals (i.e. nobody talking to me) I can survive 3 days in close confines. Tops. Anything more and I start planning ways to never endure it again.
How those extroverts can do it I'll never know.
Posted by: Sean Hackbarth at February 18, 2007 08:32 PM (QJ5cf)
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