May 19, 2007
Check Out the Anchoress!
She's got it
goin' on.
She also agrees with me that we might want so start somewhere realistic in dealing with the immigration issue . . . which, you know—that's an idea some should definitely ponder.
Unless they prefer to sit around wringing their hands, and getting angrier by the day.
(News of the Anchoress' redesign reached me via My Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.)
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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1
How about some elements in the new plan that makes it MORE UNLIKELY to happen in the future?
1) Higher penalties ($) for those that broke the law. Penalty should be based on the length of time here. Higher future tax rates?
2) People whose identities (SS #s) were stolen (10-30 million of us--fake nos. are caught immediately, as are deceased taxpayer's)--get to keep contributions made by illegals.
3) Children of illegals are NO Longer automatic citizens. Children of LEGAL aliens are, when born here.
4) No voting for illegals. Ever. You took away our choice, we take away your voice.
5) Start a rumor than illegals' organs are fair game for transplant surgeons. And CIA Chupacabras.
Posted by: Darrell at May 20, 2007 02:09 PM (B7Ka6)
2
Change "than" to "that" above in No. 5 ...
Posted by: Darrell at May 20, 2007 02:18 PM (a0ei7)
3
Darrell - We were promised "enforcement" in 1986 as well. You guys want to tell me how wonderfully that worked out?
Fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Posted by: MCPO Airdale at May 20, 2007 04:06 PM (Sd0Sv)
4
Self-evident truths--
If Ted Kennedy is involved in an immigration bill, it is a piece of crap.
What's the rush? Go back to the drawing board and come up with something that at least appears to offer a solution. 1986 was the one-time "feel good" compassionate solution. This time it has to be tough love. And any legislator that facilitates breaking the current law should face immediate charges and jail time.
Oh, and that fence idea? Go back to the drawing board on that, too. Come up with something that $10 Chinese bolt cutters won't make ineffective.
Posted by: Darrell at May 20, 2007 08:29 PM (nP3l/)
5
Oh, and a note to Jimmy Carter--
Silly! You can't pass your title of being "the worst American President EVER" yourself! That's our job! You'll always be Number 1 in our hearts!
Btw, I hope you've considered cremation as a means of foiling the subterranean, un-dead, tunneling bunnies. As an 'engineer,' I'm sure you have. Contact me and we'll compare notes.
Posted by: Darrell at May 20, 2007 09:01 PM (nP3l/)
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Makes Sense to Me.
U.S. out of
Baltimore.
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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The Evolution Debate.
Mostly, I just like to
watch.
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From Martin G
. . . comes this picture of me in West Los Angeles, taken when I was in my mid-twenties or something like that.

Note the bad hair dye: that was on purpose. I was doing this trailer-trash thing around then, for whatever reason. (I mean, I was wearing it on my cut-off, 80s-style sleeve . . . . )
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May 18, 2007
Ace on Immigration Reform
Strong
feelings, here: he's encouraging people to leave the GOP over this issue. Of course, if that happened, there'd be no one left but us little old libertarians, and we could, like stretch out a bit.
But, here, a ray of light:
Again, I'm not really bothered by the amnesty part. I mean, that's a given. What else are we going to do, realistically?
But I refuse to grant amnesty unless I get my part of the quid pro quo first. Amnesty is acceptable only if it's the last amnesty, and the government needs to secure the border, finally, to prove that.
12-30 million new American citizens I can accept. The problem is the 40-60 million to almost immediately follow. Amnesty, if necessary, but as a one-time deal, and I'm going to need some serious evidence to show it's a one-time deal rather than an ongoing cycle of runaway illegal immigration followed by periodic amnesties.
No one gets their side of the quid pro quo first, Ace: it's like a drug deal. The money and the stuff have to show up simultaneously, or the transaction doesn't take place.
No one trusts anyone in politics. Nor should they.
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Ah, but the '86 deal is already done, so now it's our turn. Besides, building a fence 1) won't happen overnight, 2) still leaves open the legal entry points, and 3) won't have any practical effect on those illegals already here, unless they want to complain that it's now harder to treat the border like a revolving door.
Posted by: Fred the fourth at May 20, 2007 09:03 AM (FlaXP)
2
--unless they want to complain that it's now harder to treat the border like a revolving door.
--
They are, the Mexican gov't is disappointed in the bill.
Posted by: Sandy P at May 20, 2007 04:02 PM (P7TI9)
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Here's a Koan for You.
Is it ever possible for a female to wear shorts with high heels and not look like a complete whore?
If not, it's rather mysterious, no? I mean, put a skirt on her, and make it even shorter, and it just looks like she's about to go clubbing. More fabric, more modesty as shorts, and . . . instant [ironic] sluttitude.
Why?
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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Depends on the cut of the shorts. And what else she is wearing. And the woman. And whether she'll be on your patio.
I am sending a few pics, but do you think this is true with a Hampton's look? (sweater tied around the neck over layered tops?) With fuller cut shorts? Women in the '40s(and earlier) seemed to pull it off. And speaking of brick construction again, do you think it's Victoria Beckham's shorts or high heels that make her look like a . . .sex worker?
Posted by: Darrell at May 18, 2007 09:45 PM (PbpgE)
2
This must be a sign of how far out of the loop I am on cultural indicators.
I would probably think she was just sexy, along with the girl in the skirt, of whom I would have no clue that she was on her way to the club.
The whores that I am aware of (at least the streetwalker sorts I see now and then around the perimeter of my 'hood) stand out like a sore thumb and it's not so much because of their attire. It's their body language and inappropriate eye contact that screams, "pick me up for a fistful of bucks".
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 21, 2007 06:57 PM (ogl5V)
3
Are they women whom one might consider attractive, given a different setting and more orthodox body language?
BTW, your approach is much more conventional/male/engineer-like/quasi-autistic than Darrell's. I am making no judgements; I am merely a student of the male mind--and of human nature.
The fact is, there are some very left-brain guys out there who nonetheless study women's fashion.
Fascinating when they do. Fascinating when they don't. And women are fascinating, too. Though some of us talk way too much.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 21, 2007 11:36 PM (3F7vn)
4
Some yes, most no. The "crack-whore" stereotypes are particularly disturbing. They have all the moves down, and then you catch a glimpse of just how hollow and ugly they really are...
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 22, 2007 07:02 PM (ogl5V)
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"I Guess We Know Who the Puppy-Blender's New Pet Is."
Well, then: I'll
share the wealth.
And what wealth it is:

Though, really—does anyone expect Prof. Althouse to be unseated anytime soon?
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May 17, 2007
Okay. I'm Willing to Come Clean.
Iraq is just exactly like Vietnam. Just
exactly.
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What is the Penalty
. . . for
heresy against the Holy Church of the Greenhouse Effect?
Unfortunately, I am an old heretic. Old heretics don't cut much ice. What the world needs is young heretics.
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"You Can't Fight City Hall."
Unless you have a blog.
The Foothills Cities blog has retained counsel to defend itself against the attempts at intimidation by the City of Pomona.
The money quote from the Bostwick & Jassy letter sent to Pomona's City Attorney:
A response to any lawsuit will surely include a special motion to strike under Code of Civil Procedure 425.16, which is designed to weed out SLAPP suits (SLAPP is an acronym for Stretegic Lawsuits Against Public Participation). Under that law, the defendants need to demonstrate that the targeted speech relates to a matter of public interest (which it clearly does here), and then the plaintiffs would have the burden of demonstrating a probability of success on their claims, without the benefit of any discovery. Your clients would not be able to satisfy such a burden. As a result, our clients would prevail, and they would be entitled to a mandatory award of their attorneys fees under the anti-SLAPP statute. Not only will any defamation plaintiffs waste the public's money paying their attorneys, they will end up paying our cleints' fees.
It's a beautiful thing. At least, I see it that way. Robert Hymers* may disagree, along with J.L. Kirk & Associates*, Enigma Software Group*, Infotel/Vericom/AmeriCorp***, the City of Pomona, and so many others.
There is a lovely passage in the coverage of this story by the Whittier Daily News (other than the fact that I—a hometown girl, whose four grandparents lived in that town for decades!—got a mention):
Pomona officials questioned the lofty aspirations of Foothill Cities [Blog] and challenged the need for anonymity.
"I could take a pseudonym of somebody that had more prestige or historical significance and be totally inaccurate," said Paula Lantz, a Pomona City Councilwoman. "Why would I give more credence or less credence to what they write by how they identify themselves?"
Lantz likened any Internet buzz over the posts, Alvarez-Glasman's letter and Foothill Cities reaction to spam chain letters that circulate from friend to friend via e-mail.
"It's like when someone forwards some cute, little anecdotal stories about Mother's Day, or Easter, or name the circumstance," Lantz said. "It went to a gazillion people because everyone that gets it turns around and clicks `send to all' and it gets sent to their entire directory of contacts and so on and so on and so on."
Pomona Mayor Norma Torres compared Foothill Cities coverage of Pomona to supermarket tabloids.
"They don't have the full picture of what's going on," she said. "I laugh at them. You know what? They are gossipers."
Lantz said she first became aware of the blog after receiving an e-mail on April 20.
"The e-mail said, `We thought you might be interested in a recent post. We're happy to publish your response or commentary on the topic," Lantz said. "It was signed, `best, Centinel."
So the officials in Pomona admit that they only know about the posts in question because one of the bloggers made a good-faith effort to get their side of the story. And blogs are, to them, simply gossip and innuendo—not worthy of notice. Except, of course, when it's time to send threatening letters on City letterhead.
Amazing.
Thanks to David Carr Harr for sending the link to the Whittier Daily News. My family—both sides, the Goodwins and Whittemores alike—will be thrilled/horrified.
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Excellent. I hope you will be able to attend the Conservative Leadership Conference so we can meet you.
I will use your post as a reference for that legalese that looks like it will get results discouraging a city council from persuing legal action against a blogger. It seems that the "arrogance of power" intoxicates many government agencies to keep pressing on against the "puny bloggers."
Posted by: Richard Disney at May 17, 2007 11:14 PM (T/pIw)
2
Bloggers do have a responsibility to verify what they claim is true. Otherwise, they can simply present information for public review, without further claims--which is what the good ones do. And I think most of us who surf the blogs can tell the difference. The City of Pomona would have been well advised to address the issues raised on the 'net. Boy, I bet that is what they are wishing they did, now.
Posted by: M.A. George at May 18, 2007 06:58 AM (kYfdk)
3
Well, sure. We're not just here to cause trouble; we're here to cause productive trouble.
If we raise an issue, but can't discern what the underlying facts are, we have to disclose that we weren't able to fact-check the entry, and are hoping more info will come in.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 18, 2007 08:24 AM (3F7vn)
4
Well, it is Harr, not Carr, but that is ok...:-)
David
Posted by: David Harr at May 18, 2007 09:47 AM (X9kfa)
5
I'm sorry; I wrote the post once, complete with all the links, and was just going to write one more line--the credit to you. Then I managed to nuke the entire entry, and had to reconstruct it. (It was, of course, funnier the first time.) So on take two I started to hurry at the end.
If my proofreading clients ever find this blog, I'm sunk
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 18, 2007 12:31 PM (3F7vn)
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Why Was Last Night Different From All Other Nights?
A little touch of
Insty, of course. The man is a force of nature:

Now if only he'd give my deep, profound and downright brilliant analyses the same attention he gives my throwaway lines . . . .
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Immigration Compromise Reached in the Senate
And it looks like the approach is somewhat holistic, which is all I asked. (Well—it's one of the things I asked.) Details so far are
sketchy. For instance, when we ask people with high-level skill sets to return to their countries of origin in order to become citizens here, how long do they have to stay there? And who covers their jobs or runs their businesses while they are gone?
This would explain why John McCain wasn't available for his periodic blogger conference call this morning, of course.
The fact is, we had to do something about this, and preferably in a way that didn't create perverse incentives for more people to come here simply because some magical "window of opportunity" might close soon. Not because the system wasn't working previously: in a sense, it's been working all along, in its own messy way. But the "don't ask, don't tell" approach has been expensive in some respects, and—more importantly—it's just too risky for us to have porous borders in this day and age.
The "back door" into this country must close, and part of the solution is to make it easier for people to get here legally. We must cut down on that red tape, or the whole thing falls apart.
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I would have preferred standalone legislation be passed that everyone already in line - the legal line - be granted citizenship.
After that, and only after, we should be discussing what to do about the illegals here. But handling it this way is a slap in the face of those who have been trying to do it the right way, and sends the message that "hey, it was okay that your first act in our country was to flout the most basic of our laws - those respecting citizenship."
I'm less than thrilled right now.
Posted by: Rocketeer at May 17, 2007 01:37 PM (GFaLW)
2
Come on, now: if you were living a hand-to-mouth existence in rural Mexico, and you knew that this country made it very difficult to get here legally—and yet whole sectors of its economy depended on your coming here—what would you do, if the opportunity for a better life presented itself?
There is nothing more "basic" about citizenship laws than any other laws, and to maintain that a person's responsibility to a foreign bureaucracy trumps his/her obligation to make a better life for his/her children is fundamentally unserious.
Tell me, Rocketeer: have you ever broken the law? Was it okay because it wasn't one that you proclaimed to be "basic"?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 02:19 PM (3F7vn)
3
"Tell me, Rocketeer: have you ever broken the law? Was it okay because it wasn't one that you proclaimed to be "basic"?"
Speaking for myself, I can't say that I've never broken any law, but then again after I did I didn't expect to be rewarded for my transgression.
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 17, 2007 04:44 PM (NnjiW)
4
"Come on, now: if you were living a hand-to-mouth existence in rural Mexico, and you knew that this country made it very difficult to get here legally—and yet whole sectors of its economy depended on your coming here—what would you do, if the opportunity for a better life presented itself?"
Then where exactly does this obligation end? There's anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5 billion people worldwide who subsist on less than $2 a day - less than even the poorest Mexican - do we have a responsibility to provide "opportunities" for all of them as well?
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 17, 2007 04:55 PM (NnjiW)
5
No. But if we do for our own self-interest (because we need the labor) we oughtn't to turn around and pretend that we didn't.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of blanket amnesty, but I'm against the game of make-believe that we've been playing for decades, in which we offer people a sort of shadow existence here to keep the economy turning, but pretend that it isn't so.
Can't we start by being honest about this?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 06:56 PM (3F7vn)
6
Of course not. But if we provide opportunities by dint of needing cheap labor, it's rather unbecoming for us to turn around and complain that we've been Victimized! By! Those! Dirty! Illegals!
All I ask for is a little bit of honesty: willing buyers of labor have employed willing providers of labor, and the U.S. Government has looked the other way.
The illegals aren't dissing us--they're operating within the parameters we've set down for working here. "You, there--you give us your labor, and we'll give you a shadow existence in the richest country in the world."
Why does everyone want to lie about this?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 07:34 PM (3F7vn)
7
"We" didn't agree to allow the illegals to move here, the globalist political and economic elite of this nation did that for us. True enough, the voters are partially guilty insofar as they didn't bother to pay sufficient attention to this issue, but nonetheless society at large never actively consented to the current
de facto open borders regime; therefore it's rather senseless to claim that "we're" going back on our word (which we never gave) to the illegals.
Nevertheless, it's a farce to claim that America "needs cheap labor." If the market clearing price for unskilled labor would be,
arguendo, $12 an hour without illegal immigrants instead of the current $7, then that's the legitimate price for that commodity. I fail to understand how a state policy that's designed to reduce the incomes of our poorest citizens even lower than they already are so the wealthy and middle class can pay 10% less at the grocery state could possibly be described in any way as "moral." The state goes to great lengths to protect high-income physicians and attorneys from foreign competition, but cashiers and janitors are fair game. It's absolutely insane.
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 17, 2007 08:49 PM (NnjiW)
8
One last thing: the common claim that produce will increase in price fourfold without illegal alien labor is nonsense. Even if we assume that unskilled labor is 100% of the price of food then wages for menial workers would have to increase fourfold as well, to around 20-28(!) dollars an hour. If that labor is 50% of the cost then wages would have to increase
sevenfold to around $35-50/hour. (!!)
As it stands, unskilled labor is only 5-10% percent of the cost of most agricultural products. Even if low skilled wages doubled to $15/hour (which they won't of course, but it would be good for the country if they did) grocery prices would only increase by 10-20% or so. It would be a small price to pay to virtually eliminate working poverty overnight, if it were possible of course.
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 17, 2007 09:03 PM (NnjiW)
9
Come on, now: if you were living a hand-to-mouth existence in rural Mexico, and you knew that this country made it very difficult to get here legally—and yet whole sectors of its economy depended on your coming here—what would you do, if the opportunity for a better life presented itself?
Quite a bundle of assumptions you've thrown in there, pell mell. But I'll bite nonetheless. In short, I'd stay the heck home, work my rear off to improve my lot, and fight to change things for the better. Are Central and South America's political and economic dysfunctions our problem to address, here,
domestically? They're not.
Can't we start by being honest about this?
"We?"
We?
Let me take this oppotunity to correct you -
I'm not the one that's encouraged lax enforcement for the last 2 decades. I've been yelling about it for quite some time. I've been honest; those who have winked and nodded at the problem have not. Forcing me and others like me to acquiesce to a horrible solution to the problem others have
created despite repeated warnings
they were creating it is not forcing me to "be honest," it's coercive and anti-democratic.
Posted by: Rocketeer at May 18, 2007 04:44 AM (EgUDX)
10
Victimized! By! Those! Dirty! Illegals!
Let me also say I'm less than thrilled by the implication that opposing amnesty for those who have violated our immigration laws is somehow xenophobic is offensive, and frankly I'm disappointed in you.
Posted by: Rocketeer at May 18, 2007 04:48 AM (EgUDX)
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Rocket--
I'm disappointed every time I hear this discussed on the radio, and someone calls in to complain that they don't like taco stands, or people who speak Spanish, and the host or hostess--generally someone whom I feel some sympathy with on other issues--doesn't correct them.
Seph--
It sounds like you have mixed feelings about capitalism itself--or perhaps I'm misreading you.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 18, 2007 08:32 AM (3F7vn)
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"It sounds like you have mixed feelings about capitalism itself--or perhaps I'm misreading you."
No, not really, but all the same I don't want to crash the wages of unskilled workers through the floor, if for no other reason I don't want to see American Hugo Chavez rise to power.
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 18, 2007 11:24 AM (NnjiW)
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 18, 2007 12:33 PM (3F7vn)
14
In the immediate term, no, it's not very probable at all. However, if the future holds more illegal amnesties (and it will) and the unassimilated Hispanic underclass continues to grow then it certainly becomes a possibility. Whether our Chavez/Morales figure will arise due to a lower-class nativist backlash or if he's a Latino or Afro-American quasi-Marxist revolutionary is unclear. It really could be either at this point.
NB: Those who value a close relationship between the US and Israel (as a "paleolibertarian" I'm fairly ambivalent about Mideast policy) should be in the vanguard of the immigration reform movement.Polls consistently show that Mexican citizens and even Mexican Americans overwhelmingly sympathize with the Palestinian "cause," and as their share of the US population increases politicians will have to adjust their positions on this issue accordingly if they want to stay in office. A similar phenomena occurred in Western Europe a couple of decades ago. Israel in the 50's and 60's had substantially closer ties with Europe than it did with the US (something absolutely unimaginable to most people today); this orientation was slowly changed in the 60's and 70's by massive waves of Muslim, and therefore pro-Palestinian, immigration. Now Europe buys peace with its Muslims buy taking "equidistant" positions on the I-P conflict, and so too we will the Mexican element in our society.
Posted by: Sephiroth at May 18, 2007 04:42 PM (NnjiW)
15
Seph--
Your argument about the Hispanic underclass growing depends on people coming into this country at a rate faster than they are lifted out of poverty. Which could certainly happen, but please note the unspoken assumption. There are a lot of wealthy Latinos in this country, and bilingual people are in huge demand in the job market.
I guess I'm having trouble reconciling your predictions of a huge "underclass" with the fierce work ethic most Latinos appear to bring with them to this country.
Also, your predictions of weakening ties with Israel depends partly on how these theoretical future immigrants interpret their religious faith, if any. Many Christians (including a good many Catholics) have a special feeling for Israel.
As Mexicans and other Latin-Americans come here they tend to absorb American values in a lot of these arenas, so it's not a slam-dunk that over the next few generations they would retain the same level of sympathy for Palestinians--particularly when they continue to see the Palis bombing innocent civilians.
In case you hadn't noticed, the Muslim extremists aren't doing a great job of P.R. these days.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 19, 2007 08:24 PM (3F7vn)
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--In case you hadn't noticed, the Muslim extremists aren't doing a great job of P.R. these days.--
Sure they are, check out CAIR, Conyers bill, the mosque in Boston background and the hold up of protection from the flying imans bill.
The border will not be protected, EOS.
There was a story about the wine makers, they wanted the help to pick the grapes. France uses machines, they could use machines, but no, they must be picked by hand.
Posted by: Sandy P at May 19, 2007 08:45 PM (P7TI9)
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Steyn on the Hollywood Blacklist
If we were to frame Kazan’s testimony to HUAC in terms of personal loyalty, what about his responsibility to, say, Vsevolod Meyerhold? When Kazan joined the Group straight out of Yale, the company looked to the Russians for inspiration, not just to Stanislavski but also to his wayward disciple Meyerhold. The latter was a great mentor to the young American and other Group members. This was a period, remember, when the Group frequently visited Russia – Lefty, for example, was staged in Moscow. Meyerhold loved the older stylized forms – commedia del’arte, pantomime – and refused to confine himself to Socialist Realism. So Stalin had him arrested and executed.
Think about that: murdered over a difference of opinion about a directing style. As “persecution” goes, that’s a little more thorough than forcing some screenwriter to work on a schlock network variety show under a false name.
Amid the herd-like moral poseurs, Kazan was always temperamentally an outsider, and his work benefited after he became one in a more formal sense. But, both before and after, his best productions concern themselves with a common question: the point at which you’re obliged to break with your own – your union, your class, your group, or, in Kazan’s case, your Group. The 1947 Oscar-winner Gentleman’s Agreement strikes most contemporary observers as very tame, square Kazan. But, in a curious way, that’s the point. When you start watching and you realize it’s an issue movie “about” anti-semitism, you expect it to get ugly, to show us Jew-bashing in the schoolyard, and vile language about kikes. But it stays up the genteel end with dinner party embarrassments, restricted resort hotels, an understanding about the sort of person one sells one’s property to. Dorothy McGuire and her Connecticut friends aren’t bad people, but in their world, as much as on Johnny Friendly’s waterfront, people conform: they turn a blind eye to the Jew-disparaging joke, they discreetly avoid confronting the truth about the hotel’s admission policies, and, as Gregory Peck comes to understand, they’re the respectable face of what at the sharp end means pogroms and genocide.
That’s what all those Hollywood and Broadway Communists did. They were the polite front of an ideology that led to mass murder, and they expected Kazan to honour their gentleman’s agreement. In those polite house parties Gregory Peck goes to, it’s rather boorish and tedious to become too exercised about anti-semitism. And likewise, at gatherings in the arts, it’s boorish and tedious to become too exercised about Communism – no matter how many faraway, foreign, unglamorous people it kills. Elia Kazan was on the right side of history. His enemies line up with the apologists for thugs and tyrants. Whose reputation would you bet on in the long run?
That would have to be in the awfully long run. Read the whole thing.
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More on My Precious
I'll get my husband to take a portrait of us soon, but in the meantime here are a few Cruiser surfwagons that look a bit similar to The Woody From Heaven (which sounds vaguely obscene, doesn't it?).

And then there's this one, to all appearances parked along the sexiest stretch of coastline in the world:

The color on mine is a dark taupe. And, of course, The Chariot of Coolness sports a sunroof, and a luggage rack that can be configured to look like a spoiler: I'm sure once I do that my gas mileage will be off the charts, due to reduced drag.
Just certain of it.
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When I Picked Up My Dry-Cleaning
. . . the clerk insisted on bringing the clothing out to hang it in my car himself. Outside the building, he saw my Cruiser next to an econo-box and a sedan, and pointed at it: "That car, right? It's small. It looks like you."
I copped to it, with pleasure.
The Cruiser is actually the largest car I've ever driven. I believe he either perceived it to be a truck, in which case it is indeed small—or the term "small" is a euphemism for "curvy and quirky."
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May 16, 2007
Darrell Speaks
And what's not to like?

You know how chicks are: we like a guy who can take charge. Until it gets boring, of course. Then we ignore him.
Honestly: I had no idea the debate on how I construct my mother's patio would get this heated.
I'm thinking of doing something like this, only a bit larger, and perhaps using mortar around the edges as well as for the center paver (which I'll buy separately, of course). Which means, Darrell, that we will have to forego wearing high heels in the backyard: Sunset is very explicit on that point.
Therefore: everyone is right, and we can all stop bickering about bricks.
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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Yes, but you have to make sure that the mortared edge bricks are set on a proper ringwall foundation cast to at least 6 inches below the local frost line, or in areas without frost, at least 18 inches deep. Said ringwall must be a minimum of 12 inches thick.
You will need to get soil tests done by a competent geotechnical testing firm to determine the bearing capacity of your soil and ensure that your total live loads and dead loads (times their appropriate Factor of Safety) does not exceed the soil bearing capacity.
Said ringwall must be Class S concrete of minimum 2500 psi compressive strength, with #4 rebar placed at the midpoint in both directions, 12" on center. Lap the rebar joints a minimum of 24 inches. When the cement arrives on the job site, be sure to have your geotechnical testing firm collect a minimum of five concrete cylinders for testing purposes--one at three days, one at seven days, three at twenty-eight days and one held in reserve. If the minimum compressive strength is not met at 28 days, the concrete must be jackhammered out and new concrete poured.
Of course to do it *right*, you then need to excavate all of the soil within that ringwall scarify the soil at the bottom and recompact it to a minimum of 95% of the maximum density, while ensuring that the moisture content is within 3% of optimal. Then you will need to bring in aggregate base course (ABC) and backfill the area within the ringwall in lifts of no more than six inches, again compacting to minimum 95% of maximum density.
The final lift must be compacted to 100% maximum density, and graded to have a 1% slope from the center out toward the edge of the ringwall foundation.
Now you can begin setting bricks. Prior to accepting your first load of bricks, a submittal should be required consisting of complete engineering design and testing data and a Certificate of Compliance from the manufacturer verifying that all applicable ASTM standards have been met. Do not accept any shipments until at least three iterations of submittals, rejections and resubmittals has been completed. You want to make sure you're getting the *right* product after all.
Brick setting may now commence in accordance with the article instructions, although you must ensure that the bricks are laid in strict accordance with the standards developed by the National Joint Bricklaying Apprenticeship and Training Committee, the International Union of Bricklayers and Allied Craftsmen, the Mason Contractors Association of America, the International Building Code and any applicable local ordinances.
Frankly I have some serious doubts as to whether the instructions in that article would even get you close...
Now, go have fun!
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 16, 2007 08:40 PM (ogl5V)
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Y'know I left out *so-o* much that is crucially important in that post.
Honestly, I think about fifty pages of specifications minimum, plus about a five-page plan set would be required to lay out exactly how to do this job right.
As we've been told, anything short of that is just not worth doing.
I could work up a set of plans and specs for you for about $15,000. Unfortunately I'm not registered in California.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 16, 2007 08:51 PM (ogl5V)
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Plus on-site Resident Engineer services if you should choose. Oh, and that price is net of third-party services such as testing labs, reproductions, submittal fees, and other direct and incidental expenses.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 16, 2007 08:54 PM (ogl5V)
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Because if I don't have the time to do it right, how will I ever find the time to do it over?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 02:26 AM (3F7vn)
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Camilla Paglia laughed. Go figure! And they say feminists don't have a sense of humor! Maybe in the spirit of openness and honesty you can mention that I sent that toon to you Sunday night. Would a chauvinist really see the parody? But how could one tell that it was made in jest? Being a toon could be a hint. And in that same spirit I should mention that a filched it from Blazing Cat Fur Blog--in case anyone is keeping track. Men figure out pretty early in life that women don't "need" them. And if they miss the point, you can rest assured that a woman will be there to tell them. And remind them again and again and again.
Like most of the best arguments, it started when someone inferred what was never implied and written. It was never about art versus engineering. Everyone that builds knows it's all art. That's why carpenters use moldings that serve no purpose other than aesthetics, and all the artist's tricks of balance, form and symmetry. Some artists use dryer lint for their medium, some stainless steel. It's all art. Except to elitists. . .
It was not about old versus new, or unique versus "cookie-cutter" boring sameness either. I did mention that if I needed to start building the project and I had to buy what I needed, I would use pavers for something designed to be walked on, not bricks, meant for walls and vertical applications.. But we all know that pavers are also made from clay, too, and that antique or faux-antique pavers have just as much charm and individuality and uniqueness as any brick ever made. More so even because of the firing times. For the genuine antiques, you have all that color variation and surface distortions that came from the pine tars and resins they used when firing. And the other poisonous and toxic impurities they used to add until the EPA put a stop to that in the early 70's. Wonder if someone told those characters straight out of "The Green Mile" that make the St. Joe brick that k told us about?
It was not that pavers have to be split, making them half-thickness. We know that contractors do that to halve their materials cost, especially in freeze-thaw safe climates. And we know that if there is still a market for a product, someone will still make it. At least until capitalism is takes its last breath. If you look around, you can find what you're looking for. Even in home centers. Along with everything else you need to complete your project. Always a good place to start, and a safe place to recommend for the do-it-yourselfer.
Yes, DC, that's exactly like the conversation went! Too bad the original is in the archive and readers can judge for themselves who was reasonable. And who wasn't. And who read what was actually written before making a comment.
It'll take more than this post to lose my support, LMA, because that support and appreciation is given freely and unconditionally-- like all my other generosities. You can even support others over me that have no leg to stand on in their arguments. Or their "outrage." It's all conversation. We agree sometimes. We disagree. Whatever. We sometimes take something away from the discussion. Like roof racks that turn into spoilers. We can use what we read whenever we please. Or not.
Posted by: Darrell at May 17, 2007 11:00 AM (qj3Dj)
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It did occur to me a few hours after I posted that that I didn't make it clear you'd sent me the cartoon. I thought it was funny as hell: that's why I posted it. I
loved it.
But what's really, really funny is that my three most devoted readers are all as passionate about dry masonry as they are about politics.
Frankly, I think it's kind of cool. Though if I pull this project off, I think you'll all be so proud of me you'll forget to ask about the exact specs. Or to care quite as much as you do now.
Remember: this is just the starter patio, in the backyard. There's still some decking/patio needed on the side yard, and
that one will have to be done more carefully, because I suspect it'll get more traffic than the one I'm contemplating doing first.
Over and out.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 11:32 AM (3F7vn)
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Great! I'll dig up the ASTM specifications right now. . .
There are two specifications for clay paving brick. ASTM C902 outlines the requirements for Pedestrian and Light Traffic paving brick and ASTM C1272 covers brick pavers for Heavy Vehicular Traffic uses.
Within each specification there are minimum compressive strengths:
• C902 requires 8,000 psi
• C1272 requires 8,000 psi for pavers set on a concrete or bituminous bed (Type R)
or 10,000 psi for pavers set on a sand bed (Type F)
For Vehicular C1272 pavers there are minimum thickness depending on the application:
• For pavers set on a bituminous or rigid setting bed (Type R) pavers must be at least 2 1/4 inches thick
• For pavers set on a sand setting bed (Type F) pavers must be at least 2 5/8 inches thick.
Clay pavers shrink during the firing process so both specifications outline permissible dimensional tolerances for particular applications:
• Application PS – Pavers for general use – permits +/- 3/16 inch on paver dimensions
of 3-5 inches and +/- _ inch on dimensions of 5-8 inches
• Application PX – Pavers for use where exceptionally tight tolerances are required –
permits +/- 3/32 on paver dimensions of 3-5 inches and +/- 1/8 on dimensions of 5-8 inches.
The high firing process that produces fired-clay paving brick produces slight inconsistencies within each brick. Limited amounts of chipping and cracking are inherent in the brick making process. As such specifications C902 and C1272 outline requirements of tolerable inconsistencies.
Brick pavers ‘shall be free of cracks or other imperfections detracting from the appearance of a designated sample when viewed from a distance of 15 feet for Application PX and a distance of 20 feet for Application PS.’
A delivery of brick shall contain not more than 5% brick that do not meet the dimensional and chipping requirements, unless otherwise agreed upon by the buyer
PART 1 - GENERAL
1.1 DESCRIPTION
The requirements for brick pavers that may be set in sand, bituminous setting bed, or rigid concrete are specified in this section.
1.2 SUBMITTALS
A. SAMPLES: Five individual samples of each brick color and/or texture showing normal and extreme variations in color or texture.
B. CERTIFICATIONS: Submit certifications that all brick pavers will meet or exceed designated specifications.
C. QUALIFICATIONS OF INSTALLER:
1. Installer shall have a minimum of five years experience.
2. Installer shall submit for approval, a list of projects similar in nature and size that establishes his/her ability to complete this project. A resume for the project-superintendent should be submitted to establish his/her ability to complete the project. If for any reason, the qualifications are not acceptable, work shall not commence until an acceptable installer is found.
PART 2 - PRODUCTS
2.1 MATERIALS
A. Clay brick pavers to be manufactured by a registered manufacturer.
B. Pavers may be chamfered and lugged or square edge without lugs. Finish may be smooth or textured.
C. PAVING BRICK IN PEDESTRIAN/LIGHT TRAFFIC AREAS:
1. True 4x8x2-1/4 as per ASTM C 902 Class SX, Type 1 Application PS, 8000 minimum PSI, 6% maximum average absorption.
2. Slip resistance shall be tested in general accordance with ASTM C 1028-96, standard test method for determining the static coefficient of friction of ceramic tile and other like surfaces by the horizontal dynamometer pull-meter test. Minimum static coefficient of friction shall be .60 for wet and .70 for dry.
D. PAVING BRICK FOR HEAVY VEHICULAR TRAFFIC:
1. True 4x8x3 as per ASTM C 1272, Application PX, 8,000 PSI minimum, average compressive strength, 6% maximum absorption.
2. Slip resistance same as LIGHT TYPE R.
E. COLOR AND TEXTURE TO BE SELECTED BY THE OWNERÂ’S REP.
PART 3 - EXECUTION
3.1 ALLOWABLE TOLERANCES
A. Joint widths to be no greater than 5/32 of an inch and not less than 1/16 of an inch.
B. Pavers shall not be touching each other unless they have spacing bars.
3.2 JOINT TREATMENTS
A. Sweep dry sand, cement or polmyric sand into the joints after the pavers have been set in place until joints are flush with top surface. Fog lightly with water. Repeat process until the joints are full.
3.3 LEVELING
A. Protect newly laid pavers with plywood or carpeting as the work progresses. If mechanical compaction is required, you must protect the surface to avoid chipping.
See? Just like all my other comments!
P.S. I would use the flexible retainers and aluminum stakes for the perimeter of my patio that they sell in home centers. It's easier than mortar and it will last a lot longer. It'll be invisible, too, once the grass grows around it. The other advice in Sunset I agree with. How could I not? It's a lot like what I said.
Posted by: Darrell at May 17, 2007 02:01 PM (fXTKw)
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Did you say "bituminous"?
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 02:29 PM (3F7vn)
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Yes, DC, that's exactly like the conversation went!
Hey hey now I didn't say that. I'm just contributing my engineering expertise to a proper solution to the problem at hand. Let's be careful not to infer what was never implied and written.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 17, 2007 04:19 PM (B2X7i)
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Don't make me stop this car!
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 17, 2007 07:00 PM (3F7vn)
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Do you say asphalt instead?
Necessary if you decide to "paver" your main thoroughfare.
When engineers fight, no one dives under the tables.
Posted by: Darrell at May 17, 2007 07:40 PM (Pgd9e)
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Could be worse: I've heard computer programmers squabble, and it's worse.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 18, 2007 12:35 PM (3F7vn)
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Confession time: I have been laughing about this all weekend.
Posted by: Desert Cat at May 20, 2007 10:03 PM (ogl5V)
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May 15, 2007
So. Christians.
Likely to start making death threats and
setting off bombs? I hope not, but it's certainly happened, and more recently than a lot of Americans remember. (Cough, cough . . . Ireland . . . cough, cough.)
But Reynolds' point is that any religious sect that wants special privileges can now look at the behavior practiced by Islamists, and get pretty much exact guidance on how to obtain that kid-glove treatment. Hindus, Jews, Paganists, practitioners of Native American faiths: anyone can pick up those tools and use 'em, if we keep offering a special status to fundamentalist Muslims.
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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One difference between Muslim violence and Christian violence is that there is no Bible verse commanding Christians to commit violence for any reason. There are commands in the Old Testament to kill certain people at certain times, but they are all directed at situations in which no Christian finds himself.
On the other hand, the Koran tells Muslims to kill non-Muslims left, right, and center. If they're not Muslim, it's open season.
Posted by: John at May 15, 2007 04:01 PM (8+dz3)
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Except that the United States attacked the Middle East first
Posted by: Jaguar b. p. at May 16, 2007 04:55 AM (mA9xG)
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Really Jaguar,
When did this happen. Sir Han Sir Han killed RFK in 1968. When did we attack them?
We went into Lebanon to help stop the civil war, attacked no one and had 240 marines killed. Who did we attack?
Until 9/11, the only truly middle eastern country we attacked was Iraq and that was because he had invaded another country.
Sure we bombed Libya, but they had a hand in a Berlin club bombing that killed soldiers. Not to mention Lockerbie.
So please do tell oh sainted one, when did we attack the Middle East?
Posted by: James Stephenson at May 16, 2007 05:26 AM (03dXc)
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jaguar? I find your troll-fu
lacking.
Attilla Girl: while "The Troubles" has always been presented as a clash of religions, it's more to do with last 'vestige of Empire.' The Brits left everywhere except--for no reason that made any sense--those last few northern counties.
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at May 16, 2007 06:04 AM (pnY28)
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Neither history, philosophy, nor theology matter to the people drawing these moral equivalencies.
The moral order of the West is based on Christianity. Every time the West has opposed Christian principles, Christianity has provided the moral critique by which the West has been corrected. (This holds true from the time that rising Christian influence ended Roman paterfamilias and infanticide, through the Magna Carta and the Declaration of Independence, all the way to Wilberforce and MLK.) But the moral-equivalence elitists cannot abide any moral order that transcends State will-to-power or opposes the zeitgeist, so they hate Christianity.
There's an old joke, "fascism is always descending upon America but somehow always lands in Europe". Well, the West always has its eyes trained against attacks from Christianity, but somehow the attack always manages to come from Islam.
Posted by: craig at May 16, 2007 06:11 AM (KeutY)
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The Crusader occupation of the Arabian Peninsula, the propping up of puppet dictators and plunder of oil, the support of the Zionist bandit state,
the tormenting of Iraq with sanctions
That's all pre-2001, you know the rest. The attack on Iraq and murder of half a million people over invisible WMD, 2003-present.
Posted by: Jaguar b. p. at May 16, 2007 06:18 AM (mA9xG)
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Jaguar - can I call you Jaguar? - there's so much historical innaccuracy and incompleteness - plus one outright lie - in that "summation" that I'm going to be charitable and assume you're just not very intelligent or well-read.
Posted by: Rocketeer at May 16, 2007 07:45 AM (GFaLW)
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Yeah, TC--I do realize that the troubles were more cultural and political than religious. And yet, when I hear people identify "the real Irish" strictly by their belonging to a particular Church (the one I belong to, in fact), it bothers me. It clouds the issue. I brought Ireland up only because it is an example of self-declared Christians behaving in an un-Christian way--and since I was raised Methodist, I'll just point out that the behavior of the Orangemen who parade through Catholic neighborhoods is outrageous.
Which brings me to Craig's point, and John's. I understand that the Lord was perfectly explicit on this point: turn the other cheek. But the Old Testament is less oriented toward forgiveness--yet Jews do not tend to behave aggressively. So it isn't just a matter of what is said in Scripture, or other holy writings. It also has to do with socialization.
In the West, everyone--Christians, Jews, Unitarians, Wiccans, etc. etc.--socializes young boys (and girls) to channel their innate aggression into productive activity--and if they can't, to write bad poetry about it.
In many of the Islamic-influenced extremist subcultures, raw aggression is touted as a virtue, and murder is praised.
So the fact that huge numbers of Muslims live perfectly quiet lives in pursuit of their own happiness tends to be obscured by the fact that others are setting off bombs.
My main point is, if we make concessions to the bombers--such as by censoring material that offends them, when the equivalent anti-Christian (anti-anything) material is widely available, we are setting the stage for world-wide civil war.
Because it's just a matter of time before another religious sect picks up the bomb-making equipment and goes after parity.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 16, 2007 10:48 AM (3F7vn)
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"My main point is, if we make concessions to the bombers-..."
Agreed. Which drives my Ma (borne in Eire) absolutley nuts when it comes to me. I want Gerry Adams run out of town on a rail.
Accepting him, a la Arafat, is what made me loathe Bubba Clinton. Same as that douche Paisley, et al, there are certain people who should just be shunned.
Like me, when my backyard barbecues get out of control!
Posted by: TC@LeatherPenguin at May 16, 2007 11:44 AM (pnY28)
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"The Crusader occupation of the Arabian Peninsula,"
The Crusaders conquered what is today called Palestine. They most certainly did *not* occupy the Arabian peninsula.
"
he propping up of puppet dictators"
Since the people who wanted to rule in the stead of the "puppet dictators" are every bit the dictator themselves, this is like replacing a red house with a red house.
"and plunder of oil,"
Every drop of oil taken from the Middle East by westerners was paid for.
"the support of the Zionist bandit state,"
Dude, the Arabs who lived there in 1947 were too poor to be worth robbing. In every war between Arabs and Jews, the Arabs have fired the first shot. *EVERY* *TIME*.
"the tormenting of Iraq with sanctions"
No, it was Saddam who tormented Iraq.
"That's all pre-2001, you know the rest."
Yes, we removed a dictator who was sponsoring terrorism (he did offer bounties to the families of suicide bombers, you know).
"The attack on Iraq and murder of half a million people"
I doubt that even ten percent of the Iraqis who have died in Iraq since 2003 died from American action, and the vast majority of those were shooting at Americans at the time.
The rest were killed by other Iraqis or foreign Muslims, who are violating the word of the prophet for no higher purpose than to keep one Muslim nation from having a government that is not based on the rule of the strong over the weak.
"over invisible WMD"
The WMD was quite visible when it was hanging from the end of a rope in Iraq some time ago.
Posted by: John at May 16, 2007 05:36 PM (Pw7+/)
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Better example: Eric Rudolph.
Posted by: Charlie (Colorado) at May 18, 2007 05:13 AM (PXthX)
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May 12, 2007
The City of Pomona.
Very
clumsy, folks. A city attorney should be able to do better.
When, oh when, will people learn that these "cease and desist" letters will always get posted, and will always bring bad publicity to those who wrote them, unless there is a damned good reason for sending them? (That is, a reason other than intimidation/suppression of First Amendment rights?)
But it's a beautiful thing. Please note the exquisite details:
• web-site
• "publication" [With scare quotes!]
• "blogs" [This one features scare quotes and the usual idiot's confusion of a blog with a blog entry—these are, presumably, the same people who confuse "faxes" with fax machines, and "CDs" with CD players.]
Mmmm. I love the smell of 20th-century modalities in the morning. It smells like . . . well, yeah. I'll say it: Victory.
It just makes me want to "libel" someone.
Posted by: Attila Girl at
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First they don't know what a blog is.
Then they mis-spell your name.
Then they send you a bewildered and angry cease & desist letter.
Then you win.
Posted by: Pixy Misa at May 16, 2007 05:54 AM (7+wS3)
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The posts have been taken down. The threats worked.
The blogs lose.
Posted by: Bill Peschel at May 16, 2007 07:08 AM (hpYIC)
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Lawyers! They really do believe that they somehow possess projected power of the pen and that people will wilt under their rhetorical skill. I'll always remember what another lawyer (pretty smart too) once told me - that half the lawyers are proved wrong every day.
Posted by: Jack is Back! at May 16, 2007 07:48 AM (ri5O+)
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Check Status of Request with the City of Pomona
Below is a list of all the requests you submitted to the City of Pomona.
Case Number 19637
Question>City Attorney>Complaints about specific department/personnel
What's up with the whole teenage-girlfriend-for-cash thing? I'm confused.
05/16/2007 - -
Posted by: joel1966 at May 16, 2007 09:05 AM (d4yPn)
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Joel,
Even when the posts are taken down, the whole world now knows that the City of Pomona is ill-educated regarding new media, and for some wacky reason of its own decided to use the office of the City Attorney to shield a private individual from criticism.
So they aren't looking good right now.
Posted by: Attila Girl at May 16, 2007 10:52 AM (3F7vn)
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Attila Girl, you are famous!!
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/news/ci_5914420
(scroll down for your moment of fame)
Posted by: David J Harr at May 17, 2007 08:26 AM (X9kfa)
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New "Mom's Patio" Thread!
I thought I'd get a tarp that's about the right size, and we could test it to make sure we can fit enough chairs into it for the mom, me, and three other people. (There can be satellite seating for larger gatherings, but I figured I'd start out with the husband, the mom, two cousins, and one dog zooming around.)
I'd like to do this in early July, when a few of the cousins will be in town. (Unfortunately, it's the teaching contingent, rather than the lumber-supply contingent, so I'll still be taking the lead. Still, a few more pairs of hands won't hurt.)
But for right now the paths really need attention: I actually swept them off the other day, despite them being bare dirt. That got some of the fence-building debris and dog toys out of the way. But allergic people don't have any business breathing any more dirt in than absolutely necessary. We'll start with pea gravel, and then move on to some kind of pavers, interspersed with herb plantings or ground covers. And then the main seating area we've all been discussing.
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